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  1. #21
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    but I have never lost hives because they were close to fields of corn.
    Sqrk I'm very happy for you and your bees. But it doesn't mean that your experience disproves hypothesis that this particular group of poisons causes bees dieouts. I might get stung by tens of bees at a time and it doesn't affect me. Then a friend of mine comes over, gets stung by one bee gets all swollen and dies. The claim that it was not a bee sting that killed him because I was stung before many times seems preposterous. More appropriate assumption would be that there was some other factors involved as well but it was the sting that killed him. Assuming the hypothetical friend managed to survive after all, he might want to do all kinds of tests to see what could be the cause of this mysterious illness, but you bet your rear side he is not getting anywhere close to the bees again, regardless of the exact mechanism of his demise. Cause and effect are not always linear and straightforward. But you don't need to know exact chain of events to avoid the result. Based on the experience of many you can make an educated assumption what is the cause and avoid it while the scientists entertain themselves with the root cause analysis. An average guy doesn't really care how exactly it happens, he just cares about it not happening. And that's exactly what they are doing in Europe. Even if it doesn't prove anything, it is probably better to error on the side of caution.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ArtSmart View Post
    Sqrk I'm very happy for you and your bees. But it doesn't mean that your experience disproves hypothesis that this particular group of poisons causes bees dieouts.
    Did I say that it did? I didn't mean to imply that what I wrote disproved any hypothesis. I thought I had clearly expressed that there isn't enough data or lab test results proving one way or the other.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  3. #23
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    My hives are all withing 100 yards of planted corn.... including my queen hives....
    Planter ran within 20 feet of my hive and not a single dead bee.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I have never lost hives because they were close to fields of corn. Not as far as I know.
    Nor have I, again, as far as I am aware. Have any of my hives ever been in some way affected? Again I cant say yes......or no. I do know this, though, I have, unquestionably, had bee hives severely damaged by spray but not since the advent of systemic pesticides. I operate many thousands of hives on 100+ bee locations over an area of around 2,000 square miles in a heavily row cropped area. All but a handful are within easy flying distance of corn or beans. The bees appear unaffected, winter losses in recent years have been minimal and easily replaced within our own operation each spring. The only big crashes we have suffered were in the early 1990's when varroa first affected our operation. Currently our bees have never looked better, swarming is the biggest issue I have battled this spring. I am not alone in the industry in that assessment. Bees face lots of stresses, some are within our control and some arent. I try to worry, first and foremost, about the things that I know I can do to be a good beekeeper and that approach has worked for me for 40 years. I havent treated my hives with anything harsher than thymol or oxalic acid for about 10 years now. My honey tests clean of any residues and a test last fall of pollen from our brood nests showed no residues whatsoever of any pesticides of any kind including miticides. I would like to think that has some bearing on my success but that is just supposition on my part. I think the critics of neonics really need to explain why there are so many success stories out there and why losses arent equally distributed within agricultural areas. I dont know the answer to that, I formulate my opinions primarily on what I see and experience and I freely relate those experiences to others. My opinions of neonics and gmo's is pretty much neutral. I do find it disheartening when these discussions are reduced to ridicule and name calling by anyone not seeing things from their perspective. I hear criticisms of gmo's and neonics lumped together as one when they, in fact, are entirely different issues. I am not involved in any sort of crusade against the big ag companies nor do I have any love for them (please dont refer to me as one of those pro-pesticide guys) but I am someone who understands that when you live among farmers and rely on good relationships with them that this issue can get pretty complex. Farmers need to control insect damage to their crops and in areas where placement of our bees strictly for honey production interferes with that then problems may arise. Fortunately there is much more awareness of these things among farmers, much "safer" and more targeted pesticides (I am betting no one else in this discussion has ever had parathion sprayed near their hives) and that helps a lot but I am always acutely aware that we are just invited guests on their property and they must first look out for their own crops. I field many calls each year from concerned farmers telling me that they need to do some spraying near my hives. I always thank them and ask with what, where and when....and then tell them to do what you feel you must do to take care of your crops. Fortunately its never (yet) been on a crop that the bees are actively working and by all outward appearances the bees always seem to be unaffected particularly if the spraying can be done in the early morning or late evening. I am rambling a bit here but I think its important that people see a balanced picture from someone that has some real life experiences to share and not just a lot of downloaded links from a google search.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  5. #25
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    If someone is really concerned about where they locate their apiary then that should be part of their criteria. I have no problem w/ anyone wishing to distance themselves froma perceived problem.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  6. #26
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Has anyone noticed that the topic was about Neonicotinoids. and Not GMO! Most tend to manipulate facts to produce the results they wish. Although I do not believe neonics are the end all be all of the nations pesticides problems. I do believe that for now they are better than the alternative Have we all forgot DDT.

    People on the left tend to interpreted information in a manner that bolsters their belief, while people on the right tend to do the same.
    Both sides blend information from studies related to but not intended to discover the same information to make it sound as though it if the gospel fact. as in blending beliefs about GMO with that of Neonics to produce a logical conclusion with the results one desires to prove their point. Or perpetuate the myth that without honey bees we would starve. both sides use the same exact information in proof of two different conclusions.
    Compile this with the chicken little's who think that past incidents stand as concrete proof that the future will bring the results they suspect. and it becomes nearly imposable to differentiate fact from fiction.

    It is a sound practice to not take anything on the interned as the gospel. If you want to know the truth get the actual papers as written by the research team and read them Also read the accreditations of the researcher and any testing companies used in the research. I have read many papers in which the writer, NEVER actually did research, but simply compiled information from other research. then formed his/her own hypotheses.

    Although research done by the labs at PSU indicated that neonics do not transcend plant growth to the pollen and nectar. and following recommended planting procedures minimize exposure, it is not within sound reason to place bee hives in an area where residual drift can affect the bees as it has been determined that the coating on the seeds IS harmful to bees. remember that it all depends on the individual doing the planting, and that they will make a diligent effort to minimize non target exposure.

    As beekeepers we must understand that although we may think differently. our bees, are not the most important agricultural resource in the nation. We must all use education tempered with understanding to reach a middle ground between all aspects of life and livelihood that will benefit the human race as a whole. We must to approach every aspect with an open mine. in consideration of the viewpoint of others.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ArtSmart View Post
    But it doesn't mean that your experience disproves hypothesis that this particular group of poisons causes bees dieouts. Cause and effect are not always linear and straightforward. But you don't need to know exact chain of events to avoid the result. Based on the experience of many you can make an educated assumption what is the cause and avoid it while the scientists entertain themselves with the root cause analysis. An average guy doesn't really care how exactly it happens, he just cares about it not happening. And that's exactly what they are doing in Europe. Even if it doesn't prove anything, it is probably better to error on the side of caution.
    Oh the irony and contradiction…..

    But it doesn't mean that your experience disproves hypothesis that this particular group of poisons causes bees dieouts.
    Hypothesis = a proposed explanation for a phenomenon. The Facebook post masquerading as a news article has gone past the hypothesis stage and jumps straight to a conclusion.

    Cause and effect are not always linear and straightforward
    That is exactly (linear cause and effect) what the Facebook post masquerading as a news article is doing.

    Based on the experience of many you can make an educated assumption what is the cause and avoid it while the scientists entertain themselves with the root cause analysis.
    Numerous anecdotes do not equal data and do not result in "educated" assumptions.
    Scientists were the ones that proved bees die if they consume neonic pesticides. That’s not entertainment, it is science.

    An average guy doesn't really care how exactly it happens, he just cares about it not happening.
    How exactly do we prevent something from happening when we do not know exactly how it happens. The average guy doesn’t understand science enough to form anything more than an emotional opinion.

    And that's exactly what they are doing in Europe.
    argumentum ad populum
    Let me help you on that: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Argumentum+ad+populum
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  8. #28
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Jim,

    I do appreciate your perspective and experience, and, I'm glad that so far you're not seeing problems (that you know of) from neonics with your bees. However, your position often seems to be that because YOU haven't had any problems, therefore no problems exist, and, that those of us not directly involved in day-to-day farming operations basically don't know what we're talking about.

    But that's kind of like saying: "Well, I smoked for 20 years and I don't have lung cancer, therefore smoking doesn't cause lung cancer." Clearly, a statement such as that does not hold muster against the reality that SOME people do get lung cancer from smoking. Similarly, some people--including beekeepers with decades of experience (not wet behind the ears newbies) are saying that neonics ARE causing problems for them.

    Studies suggest that only 10% of smokers will develop lung cancer from smoking. Even if only 10% of bee hives are harmed by neonics, I think you'd agree that it's a substantial problem. Clearly, more research is needed, and not just on varroa like Monsanto and Bayer are doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Nor have I, again, as far as I am aware. Have any of my hives ever been in some way affected? Again I cant say yes......or no. I do know this, though, I have, unquestionably, had bee hives severely damaged by spray but not since the advent of systemic pesticides. I operate many thousands of hives on 100+ bee locations over an area of around 2,000 square miles in a heavily row cropped area. All but a handful are within easy flying distance of corn or beans. The bees appear unaffected, winter losses in recent years have been minimal and easily replaced within our own operation each spring. The only big crashes we have suffered were in the early 1990's when varroa first affected our operation.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Someone mentioned neonic/GMO being a separate issue. The current GMO crops are mostly designed to better tolerate neonics - so they are delicately intertwined.

    Nor is it a Left/Right issue. Some would have us believe that. It's more of a consumer/control issue.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    As my bees sit between acres and acres of corn and soybeans you'd think my modest 20+ hives should spontainously explode, yet thanks to some well time rain and moderate temps I may get a bumper crop this year. They've been there since I started a short 7 years ago, so they should have all types of build up in the wax, pollen, population, queens, etc. I should be a poster child for CCD if all the neonic claims were true. Have I lost hives? You bet, but mostly due to operator error. A few overwinter deaths that left me stumped but I put a swarm or nuc right back in there and away they go.

    By all means avoid putting your bees from locations you deem unacceptable due to GMO and neonics. It leaves more sites for those of us who don't buy the hype.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  11. #31
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    Jim,

    I do appreciate your perspective and experience, and, I'm glad that so far you're not seeing problems (that you know of) from neonics with your bees. However, your position often seems to be that because YOU haven't had any problems, therefore no problems exist, and, that those of us not directly involved in day-to-day farming operations basically don't know what we're talking about.

    But that's kind of like saying: "Well, I smoked for 20 years and I don't have lung cancer, therefore smoking doesn't cause lung cancer." Clearly, a statement such as that does not hold muster against the reality that SOME people do get lung cancer from smoking.
    i would disagree. This isn't a small sample or an individual it's a very large sample and such a sample should contain a cross section of problems. Controlled tests are done and results extrapolated by scientists from only a tiny number of hives. Certainly there must be many variables between mine and those whose bees have suffered significant die offs. It could possibly be pesticide related use variability it also could be one of any number of pathogen, management, forage, climate or treatment variables. Those comparisons should be made just as critically. Arent you the least bit curious as to why some large operations seem to be afflicted with losses while others aren't? Isn't it just good science to keep an open mind and try to understand why?
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #32
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    Studies suggest that only 10% of smokers will develop lung cancer from smoking. Even if only 10% of bee hives are harmed by neonics, I think you'd agree that it's a substantial problem. Clearly, more research is needed, and not just on varroa like Monsanto and Bayer are doingStudies suggest that only 10% of smokers will develop lung cancer from smoking. Even if only 10% of bee hives are harmed by neonics, I think you'd agree that it's a substantial problem. Clearly, more research is needed, and not just on varroa like Monsanto and Bayer are doing..


    Not a good comparison….

    Hyperbole aside, cigarettes were not designed to kill people. If they were, a 10 percent cancer rate would is not very effective.

    Pesticides are designed to do one thing; be 100 percent effective at killing insects (or as close to 100 percent as they can get).

    By that reasoning, if neonics really were a problem, we would be seeing a lot more than 10 percent of beehives being harmed. And what is “harm” anyway? Do you mean a handful of dead bees, all dead bees, or CCD attributed to some unknown factor?

    Allow me to provide my own anecdotal evidence since everyone else is. I sprayed my garden with a pesticide product that contains neonics and none of my bees died. My hives are less than 50 feet from my garden and the bees provide ample pollination.
    Honey Badger Don't Care ಠ_ಠ ~=[,,_,,]:3

  13. #33
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    If I lose 10% to neonics, I can probably be happy with that. For several reasons. First, I can with a SMALL amount of care limit exposure, second, 10% loss is way under what winter causes and its related issues....

    And I don't poop my pants every time I hear a plane... something I used to do with crop dusting....... Want to be nervous? watch a duster working the fields around your hives knowing there is no way in heck you can move them fast enough.....

  14. #34
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabber86 View Post
    Not a good comparison….
    You completely missed the comparison. I'm not comparing neonics to smoking, I'm comparing the 9 out 10 people who DON'T get cancer from smoking saying that because they didn't get it, that smoking doesn't cause cancer. It's faulty logic--just like people saying that because neonics haven't harmed their bees, therefore neonics don't harm bees.

    Pesticides are designed to do one thing; be 100 percent effective at killing insects (or as close to 100 percent as they can get).

    By that reasoning, if neonics really were a problem, we would be seeing a lot more than 10 percent of beehives being harmed. And what is “harm” anyway? Do you mean a handful of dead bees, all dead bees, or CCD attributed to some unknown factor?
    And how do you know what the rate of harm to bees from neonics would/should be? So you're reasoning is that because 70, 80, or 90% of hives aren't dying from neonics that therefore neonics aren't a problem for bees? That's exactly the kind of faulty logic I'm talking about......

    Allow me to provide my own anecdotal evidence since everyone else is. I sprayed my garden with a pesticide product that contains neonics and none of my bees died. My hives are less than 50 feet from my garden and the bees provide ample pollination.
    And yet two weeks ago neonics applied to flowering trees in Wilsonville, Oregon killed over 50,000 bumblebees (over 150 colonies). So, it's clear that neonics DO kill bees--right? Interestingly enough, some nearby trees were treated with the same neonics a few months ago (before they were in bloom as per the directions) and yet following the bee kill in Wilsonville, researchers discovered that nearby hives were still being killed/harmed by the neonics MONTHS after they were applied. Those bee deaths would have almost certainly gone unnoticed were it not for the 50,000+ bees that dropped dead in the parking lot.

    So, if your point is that you sprayed around your bees with neonics with no ill effect (yet) that that means that neonics don't harm bees and are nothing to worry about, well, that's a textbook example of the faulty logic that I'm talking about......
    Last edited by BigDawg; 07-03-2013 at 04:16 PM.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Quote Originally Posted by ArtSmart View Post
    Sqrk I'm very happy for you and your bees. But it doesn't mean that your experience disproves hypothesis that this particular group of poisons causes bees dieouts. I might get stung by tens of bees at a time and it doesn't affect me. Then a friend of mine comes over, gets stung by one bee gets all swollen and dies. The claim that it was not a bee sting that killed him because I was stung before many times seems preposterous. More appropriate assumption would be that there was some other factors involved as well but it was the sting that killed him. Assuming the hypothetical friend managed to survive after all, he might want to do all kinds of tests to see what could be the cause of this mysterious illness, but you bet your rear side he is not getting anywhere close to the bees again, regardless of the exact mechanism of his demise. Cause and effect are not always linear and straightforward. But you don't need to know exact chain of events to avoid the result. Based on the experience of many you can make an educated assumption what is the cause and avoid it while the scientists entertain themselves with the root cause analysis. An average guy doesn't really care how exactly it happens, he just cares about it not happening. And that's exactly what they are doing in Europe. Even if it doesn't prove anything, it is probably better to error on the side of caution.
    When a colony of bees die, do you look at what is left in the hive and try to determine what it died from? Or do you look outside the hive and guess? When I come across a colony that isn't acting like it should or like others in the yard or producing like others in the yard I look into the brood nest area to see what I can see. That's how I was trained as an Apiary Inspector.

    Notice something appears abnormal and try to figure out why. Find what you think the cause might be and take samples to verify the Field Diagnosis bt Lab Tests.

    Has anyone on beesource done that w/ colonies they suspect were killed by pesticides such as ones being discussed in these Threads?
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  16. #36
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    Interestingly enough, some nearby trees were treated with the same neonics a few months ago (before they were in bloom as per the directions) and yet following the bee kill in Wilsonville, researchers discovered that nearby hives were still being killed/harmed by the neonics MONTHS after they were applied. Those bee deaths would have almost certainly gone unnoticed were it not for the 50,000+ bees that dropped dead in the parking lot.
    Reference? Not even the Xerces Society - an Oregon based anti-pesticide group - has mentioned anything about "hives were still being killed/harmed by the neonics MONTHS after they were [properly applied [per label directions]. http://www.xerces.org/

  17. #37
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    The use of the number of dead bees is used to attempt to inflate the disaster. Beekeepers usually think about colonies, not individual bees.
    Waken up. Disaster is here

  18. #38
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Nabber86;

    Sounds like your path was the same one I found. We cannot believe all the things posted on the internet. There are far too many agendas, motives, and diabolical purposes. The inconsistencies of political ads and campaign lies should have revealed that to us. Before we believe a story, or buy into an inductive response, we must know the highest truth. Finding the truth is not easy. It is hard work. Someone has to be acknowledged as a trustworthy source. The knowledge of data collection, studies, testing and measures, plus interpreting results must be something that bee keepers learn. That way we are not fooled or mislead; either on purpose or accidentally. Stories and studies must be challenged.

    Who are the trustworthy sources that can search out and weigh the information and judge it correctly? What resources are available for American Bee Keepers to fund legitimate investigative efforts as we can get real accurate results?

    When it was discovered that DDT was responsible for the reproduction problems of the American Bald Eagle, extreme measures were taken, and now the Bald Eagle, that was once on the endangered list, has become plentiful. People rising up can make a difference. Just sayin . . .
    No one famous.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    yankee joe,
    600 colonies. One midsized commercial beekeepers worth. Nope, not a disaster. A disaster for the beekeeper but not for the Nation.

    Something a beekeper should know, but the general public doesn't.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  20. #40
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    Default Re: 37 million bees dead

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    Reference? Not even the Xerces Society - an Oregon based anti-pesticide group - has mentioned anything about "hives were still being killed/harmed by the neonics MONTHS after they were [properly applied [per label directions]. http://www.xerces.org/
    Just because Xerces advocates for responsible use of pesticide does not make them an 'anti-pesticide group'. They are a pro-pollinator group, and one that I'm honestly surprised more of us don't support. Characterizing them as anything else is blatantly false.

    BTW, I drove by the 'kill' in wilsonville. Anyone that is even reasonably interested in pollinators would have bothered by the 1" carpet of multiple species of bees lying in the parking lot, no matter what the cause. It was brutal.

    The hyperbole and multiple agendas of this thread are a good example of why one should never trust what is read on the internet. The original article is poorly cited and clearly has an agenda, while multiple posters in this thread appear to have the opposite agenda and by first glance should work for Monsanto as advocates. The truth often lies in the middle, as I think it does in this case.

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