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  1. #61
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    From today's American Bee Journal:

    PENSACOLA, Fla. - Forthcoming research in the journal Environmental Toxicology and Chemistry analyzes the physiological effects of three separate pesticides on honey bee (Apis mellifera). An international research team - Drs. Stephan Caravalho, Luc Belzunces and colleagues from Universidade Federal de Lavras in Brazil and Institut Nationale de la Recherche Agronomique in France - conclude that the absence of mortality does not always indicate fuctional integrity.

    Deltamethrin, fipronil and spinosad, widely used pesticides in agriculture and home pest control, were applied to healthy honey bees and proved toxic to some degree irrespective of dosage. At sublethal doses, the pesticide modulated key enzymes that regulate physiological processes, cognitive capacities and immune responses, such as homing flight, associative learning, foraging behavior and brood development. Sensitivity to these insecticides and foraging range (as far as 1.5 to 3 km) make A. mellifera an optimal candidate for monitoring the environmental impacts of pesticides.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    What gets me about this argument isn't than one side is right or wrong. It's a debate because we don't know what's causing CCD, and because we don't know the impact that various pesticides (which are under-regulated) have on bees. What gets me is that arguments like

    "Seed coatings by and large represent the next step in tech. What the REPLACE is the real key. they replace a ton of post emergence spraying. allow better yields, and control a large number of pest. "

    and

    "seed treatments are a great leap forward from ariel spraying."

    become the underlying theme for an uncompromising rejectionist attitude towards scrutiny of neonics. As though, because it's good for agriculture, the idea that there might be some other, unintended consequence is absurd and illogical.

    The point where most things in our society have been vetted, historically, has been when people in the community are impacted and care about the consequences, and either increase scrutiny themselves, or cause some more sophisticated agency to care about it for them. Water contamination, greater ecological damage, overfishing, etc, etc. We have certainly come a long way since the slaughterhouses of Sinclair's Jungle, but the lesson from those moments of progress and accountability should be the value in demanding it - and viewing the world with a calm, objective skepticism. Not simply accepting some corporate broad-stroke message that 'it's all good.'

  3. #63
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    How about the replacement for neonics is nothing?
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    ... were applied to healthy honey bees and proved toxic to some degree irrespective of dosage.
    Yawn...yet another unrealistic bee poisoning by researcher study that will not answer key questions like: 1) What pathogen(s) cause CCD? 2) Why do many beekeepers in heavy neonic usage areas have little CCD and low winter losses? Why do many beekeepers in low neonic usage areas have considerable CCD and high winter losses?

  5. #65
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    Yawn...yet another unrealistic bee poisoning by researcher study that will not answer key questions like: 1) What pathogen(s) cause CCD? 2) Why do many beekeepers in heavy neonic usage areas have little CCD and low winter losses? Why do many beekeepers in low neonic usage areas have considerable CCD and high winter losses?
    Good to see you keeping an open mind. Yawn, indeed.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/One_single_proof

  6. #66
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by hedges View Post
    Good to see you keeping an open mind. Yawn, indeed.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/One_single_proof
    An open mind?? no right or wrong??? a few do gooders want to shut down farming as we know it because they think they have the answer. and yet nothing they say is even close to logical. any 6th grader can understand that point. Guys like blue and myself, are asking for something simple.... sit down and shut up until you have something that makes a lick of sense... nothing more.
    AS we all know, if you lock bees up and feed them poisen you can get someone to fund your studies........ but thats not science or real world....

    One side is attempting to control the world... Literaly... they have managed to shut down the EU... and they want to do it here also... armed with nothing more than a placard and great slogan....... lets give it 3 years.. if the EU is suddenly healed.. then so be it... But I am guessing you will hear things like "its not long enough" ect..... it goes on and on......WLC keeps commenting on the life of neonics in soil.. but conviently leaves out the fact that the soil he referes to happens to be the type in the are with the most and healthyest bees in the country....

    What Some of here want is a voice of reality. Big dawg makes teh argument about since I don't have CCD I have blinders...... Hes so far off its not funny.... The MIDWEST does not have CCD.... millions of hives and doing fine... we have one story about some losses in IL... state inspectors will tell you it was FB as they tested in beltsville... the list goes on...

  7. #67
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    Palmer, Kansas, USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    As a new beekeeper with a farming background this whole topic is fascinating. I guess I come down in the middle. I haven't seen anyone refute high neonics vs low ccd and the reverse. Obviously this seems like at least a serious wound if not a fatal blow to the anti neonic crowd. But at the same time I find it personally impossible to believe that big agrochem companies and the revolving door of the oversight agencies are really looking out for bees or people in general. I guess people have much more faith in the system than I do.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by pharmbee View Post
    I haven't seen anyone refute high neonics vs low ccd and the reverse. Obviously this seems like at least a serious wound if not a fatal blow to the anti neonic crowd.
    Another new wound to the anti-neonic crowd: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...97724FF.d03t04

    Abstract Background
    Neonicotinoid insecticides have been the target of much scrutiny as possible causes of recent declines observed in pollinator populations. Although neonicotinoids have been implicated in honey bee pesticide incidents, there has been little examination of incident report data. Here we summarize honey bee incident report data obtained from the Canadian Pest Management Regulatory Agency (PMRA).

    Results
    In Canada, there were very few honey bee incidents reported 2007-2011 and data were not collected prior to 2007. In 2012, a significant number of incidents were reported in the province of Ontario, where exposure to neonicotinoid dust during planting of corn was suspected to have caused the incident in up to 70% of cases. Most of these incidents were classified as “minor” by PMRA, and only six cases were considered “moderate” or “major”. In that same year, there were over three times as many moderate or major incidents due to older non-neonicotinoid pesticides, involving numbers of hives or bees far greater than those suspected to be due to neonicotinoid poisoning.

    Conclusions
    These data emphasize that, while exposure of honey bees to neonicotinoid-contaminated dust during corn planting needs to be mitigated, other pesticides also pose a risk.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    Another new wound to the anti-neonic crowd: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...97724FF.d03t04
    ...
    Oh, yes, you still do your business. The coauthor of the article you cited is ... guess who?

    David Drexler
    Agrology Consultant
    Calgary, Canada Area | Farming
    Current:
    President at Researchman Consulting Inc.
    Past:
    Director, Development and Licensing at Bayer CropScience August 2006 – December 2011
    Marketing Manager at Aventis CropScience
    http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view...cmpt%3Aprimary

    Researchman Consulting Inc looks like bogus to me - it has only street address for Drexler's trash container, that's it, take a look:
    https://www.google.com/maps?q=&layer...ed=0CCsQxB0wAA
    Last edited by cerezha; 07-25-2013 at 03:39 AM.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  10. #70
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Oh, yes, you still do your business. The coauthor of the article you cited is ... guess who?

    David Drexler
    Agrology Consultant
    Calgary, Canada Area | Farming
    Current:
    President at Researchman Consulting Inc.
    Past:
    Director, Development and Licensing at Bayer CropScience August 2006 – December 2011
    Marketing Manager at Aventis CropScience
    http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view...cmpt%3Aprimary

    Researchman Consulting Inc looks like bogus to me - it has only street address for Drexler's trash container, that's it, take a look:
    https://www.google.com/maps?q=&layer...ed=0CCsQxB0wAA
    Why does it matter who wrote it? facts are facts..... You choose to attack the source instead of the facts,,,,, Constantly.
    reminds me of the old saying for lawyers, "if the facts are on your side, pound the facts, if not, pound the table"

  11. #71
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    > reminds me of the old saying for lawyers, "if the facts are on your side, pound the facts, if not, pound the table"

    Use your shoe for more emphasis!

    Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev at the UN in 1960

    http://www.time.com/time/specials/pa...843496,00.html


    ultracrepidarian >> noting or pertaining to a person who criticizes, judges, or gives advice outside of his expertise

  12. #72
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    Apr 2013
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    Eugene, Oregon USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Good job Cerezha! With billions of dollars in annual sales on the line, you can bet your sweet patootie that the industry is going to funnel millions of dollars into misinformation and misdirection campaigns in order to maintain the status quo as long as possible.

    Of course it matters a great deal what/who the source of the information is, i.e. the Tobacco Industry "scientists" to this day insist that smoking doesn't cause cancer, and yet most people are smart enough to understand that they are paid by the tobacco industry to create and maintain a misinformation campaign designed to hide the truth about the harmful effects of their products....

  13. #73
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    Of course it matters a great deal what/who the source of the information is, i.e. the Tobacco Industry "scientists" to this day insist that smoking doesn't cause cancer, and yet most people are smart enough to understand that they are paid by the tobacco industry to create and maintain a misinformation campaign designed to hide the truth about the harmful effects of their products....
    Why do you repeatedly keep trying to link tobacco with bees when "most people are smart enough to understand ....."



    Are you wearing both shoes?
    ultracrepidarian >> noting or pertaining to a person who criticizes, judges, or gives advice outside of his expertise

  14. #74
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    Feb 2012
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    San Mateo, Ca, USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    it doesn't seem like the report is full of misinformation and it aligns with my belief that the neonic pesticides while having some impacts on bee colonies (mostly revolving around seed dust) actually are a significant improvement over the non-neonic pesticides.

    So rather than debating a ban on neonics shouldn't we be debating about if farmers should be using more neonic pesticides as a replacement for the organophosphates that they are currently using?

  15. #75
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    Feb 2012
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    San Mateo, Ca, USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    an interesting article that claims that CCD is caused by Nosema ceranae combined with a synergistic effect from funigicides that weakens a bee's ability to resist Nosema:

    http://qz.com/107970/scientists-disc...n-you-thought/

  16. #76
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Use your shoe for more emphasis!
    And as we all remember, it worked quite nicely As for paper - it is important who wrote the article - some people have more credentials than other. In this case, it is even not a "paper" it is sort of interpretation of public data without any statistical analysis etc. I am surprised that it was accepted as a scientific paper. Make me think about reviewing process in that journal. It is also important to disclose any conflict of interest in the paper - apparently, David Drexler did not disclose that he was with Bayer 2006 – 2011. It is unethical in our community
    Серёжа, Sergey

  17. #77
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Why do you repeatedly keep trying to link tobacco with bees ...
    It is obvious (to me) - neonicotinoids as well as nicotinoids are basically derivatives of the nicotine. All of them utilize poisonous mechanism of the nicotine.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  18. #78
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Why do you repeatedly keep trying to link tobacco with bees when "most people are smart enough to understand ....."
    Perhaps BigDawg is an ex smoker?
    Regards, Barry

  19. #79
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by BayHighlandBees View Post
    it doesn't seem like the report is full of misinformation ...
    It is not "missinformation", it is "interpretation" without using any scientific tool(s) to prove their interpretation. They claimed at the beginning of the "article" that data was very spotty, many fields were not filled up and approximations were used. They did conclusion, which is not originated from the data... for simple reason - there were not enough data for statistical analysis - only 100 partially reported cases.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  20. #80
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    Eugene, Oregon USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    I agree that the article is an important step forward in better understanding how pesticides negatively impact non-target pollinators. However, I do disagree with your assertion that the Quartz article claims that "CCD is caused by Nosema ceranae combined with a synergistic effect from funigicides that weakens a bee's ability to resist Nosema."

    From the Quartz article:

    "The findings break new ground on why large numbers of bees are dying though they do not identify the specific cause of CCD, where an entire beehive dies at once."

    And nowhere in the original paper did the authors suggest that Nosema is the cause of CCD.

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