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  1. #181
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    As we already discussed, trolls distract from the main point and it needs to be addressed.
    So, using your description of trolls, what exactly were you thinking when you posted this? (the quote below is your entire post):
    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    do you drink from faucet or bottled?
    Your post seems to fit your own characterization of a troll!
    -- Victor Hugo -- "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.

  2. #182
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Watch out for Graham, we don't call him the Resident Archiver for nothing!
    Regards, Barry

  3. #183
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    No, they were trying to measure acute toxicity of the clothianidin in the field condition. No one could measure chronic toxicity if bees were exposed only for 3 weeks. What they did - they exposed for 3 weeks and than watch the colonies until next season. It does not make any sense because for acute toxicity they do not need such long period of time. In fact, on the graph, Fig.2 is clearly shown the increase of the dead bees in treated experiment vs untreated.
    From another hand, for chronic toxicity, the colony needs to be exposed to clothianidin for long period of time. Note that because beehive is a superorganism, the exposure must be comparable with the beehive living cycle, not individual bee lifespan. It just amused me how it is possible to do such lousy work for $950K.
    Let me help Cerz out here, what hes trying to say, and doing so poorly at is "THEY DIDN'T POISON THEM TILL THEY ALL DIED TO SUPPORT MY CONCLUSION"

  4. #184
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    eolia, lincoln county, mo.
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Cerez; you have just confused me. I thought the discussion was the study. Blue is just quoteing from it, not from the outside. Now if the study contradicts itself that tells me it is flawed or not explained properly by the authors.

  5. #185
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    ....Your post seems to fit your own characterization of a troll!
    Funny, but if you think so, than I should stop posting - enjoy yourself
    Серёжа, Sergey

  6. #186
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    Sacramento, Calif. USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    It's hard to take any of the study's findings seriously when the control groups hives---the one NOT exposed to clothianidin--tested positive for clothianidin residue...
    I think the indisputable and most important finding of the study was that the winter loss was only 15% in both the exposed and control bees. Thus we see clothianidin seed treatments don't compromise bee health.

  7. #187
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    Eugene, Oregon USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Yeah, after 2 weeks of possible exposure to neonics (the study's authors never bothered to check the dna from the pollen samples collected from the hives to make sure the bees were actually foraging on the neonic canola....) apparently the bees did ok. But where are the real life studies from Bayer, Monsanto, and Syngenta? Neonics have been a suspected culprit in CCD for nearly 7 years now threatening the $3 billion a year neonics industry, and you mean to tell me that the industry hasn't done any long-term exposure studies?

    I'm betting that they have, and that they weren't happy with the results and so they are keeping the studies to themselves.....

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    I think the indisputable and most important finding of the study was that the winter loss was only 15% in both the exposed and control bees. Thus we see clothianidin seed treatments don't compromise bee health.

  8. #188
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    San Mateo, Ca, USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Sergey,
    I think you answered your own question

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    could you please provide the reference where I stated that 'big companies doing evil deed'? I usually specific, so far I discussed: tobacco - yes, they misguided the public opinion purposely; Monsanto - contaminated indigenous maize in south America and harass small farmers; Bayer&Ko managed to obtain counteraction from entire EU - I believe more EU than Bayer&Ko.

  9. #189
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    Eugene, Oregon USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Right here!


    It would seem that you post this stuff without paying much attention to the words you actually write!
    Well, it's true. Big tobacco lied for DECADES claiming their product was safe when they KNEW, FOR A FACT that it wasn't. Monsanto did the same thing with PCB's, Dioxin, etc., but now that they've changed a few legal documents (even though the "new Monsanto" shares the same building and board of directors with the "old Monsanto" we're supposed to believe that now they're good guys all of the sudden? Meh............

  10. #190
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Dog,

    canola blooms for 3 weeks
    http://canola.okstate.edu/commonquestions

    as mentioned earlier: 3 weeks is ~33% of a bee's life, and 100% of its childhood. Isn't that enough?
    Also if the canola bloom only normally lasts 3 weeks, isn't the test a normal experience for bees (at least for bees living in neonic canola fields)?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    Yeah, after 2 weeks of possible exposure to neonics (the study's authors never bothered to check the dna from the pollen samples collected from the hives to make sure the bees were actually foraging on the neonic canola....) apparently the bees did ok. But where are the real life studies from Bayer, Monsanto, and Syngenta? Neonics have been a suspected culprit in CCD for nearly 7 years now threatening the $3 billion a year neonics industry, and you mean to tell me that the industry hasn't done any long-term exposure studies?

    I'm betting that they have, and that they weren't happy with the results and so they are keeping the studies to themselves.....

  11. #191
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    Eugene, Oregon USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    I'm not aware of a single incidence where a beek put a new (i.e. previously unexposed to neonics) hive on a neonics crop for two weeks, and then had that hive develop CCD and die out. If you've seen a report like that, please let me know.....So therefore, testing under those parameters seems, well, pretty much useless--unless of course to want to try and show that neonics don't harm bees...

    Where are the long-term, real world, studies that actually mimic the exposure levels that the hives developing CCD have been exposed to?

  12. #192
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    Sacramento, Calif. USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    But where are the real life studies from Bayer, Monsanto, and Syngenta? Neonics have been a suspected culprit in CCD for nearly 7 years now threatening the $3 billion a year neonics industry, and you mean to tell me that the industry hasn't done any long-term exposure studies?
    Jim Lyon, gmcharlie and Barry have told us there is little to no CCD in Illinois or South Dakota and other keepers in neighboring Corn Belt States have expressed much the same on other
    forums despite the fact the Corn Belt is the heart neonic country:
    Uploaded with ImageShack.com

  13. #193
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Dog,
    Canola grows for 6 months, blooms for 3 weeks.
    Corn grows for 6 months and actively produces pollen for only 8 days.
    http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0128.html

    sounds like you've just endorsed neonic treatments.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    I'm not aware of a single incidence where a beek put a new (i.e. previously unexposed to neonics) hive on a neonics crop for two weeks, and then had that hive develop CCD and die out. If you've seen a report like that, please let me know.....So therefore, testing under those parameters seems, well, pretty much useless--unless of course to want to try and show that neonics don't harm bees...

    Where are the long-term, real world, studies that actually mimic the exposure levels that the hives developing CCD have been exposed to?

  14. #194
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    Eugene, Oregon USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Talking about hives that HAVEN'T got CCD is pretty much pointless. Millions of people who smoke cigarettes don't get lung cancer, that doesn't in any way mean that smoking doesn't cause cancer......

    BTW, I've seen the pro-neonics crowd state several times that there has been no CCD in Illinois--what about long term beekeeper Steve Mayes who has been looking at 55% and 60% losses over the past few years?

    "Steve Mayes said it was another bad winter for his bees.

    The owner of Mackinaw Valley Apiaries said he lost 55 percent of the bees he had in 320 hives across central Illinois.

    “That’s better than last year when 60 percent died,” Mayes said. Mayes said it may be coincidence, but the problems of disappearing bees came to light at about the same time that synthetic pesticides using neonicotinoid chemicals came into wider use. Citing a study by the federal government, Mayes said that exposure to the pesticide at a dose of two or three parts per billion was enough to throw off the bees.

    “It doesn’t kill them, but they can’t find their way home,” he said.


    http://www.pjstar.com/news/x93516211...y-bee-shortage

    That's something else the pro-neonics folks don't want to talk about--the fact that a lot of the beeks reporting CCD losses are long-time beekeepers with many years experience. These aren't newbies or hobbyists, these are people who have been working with bees for decades, and yet they are suffering major losses due to CCD. Beeks like Steve Mayes, Bret Adee, Steve Ellis, Bill Dahle, Jim Doan, the list goes on and on. Combined, these beeks have decades and decades of experience, and yet the neonics industry would like us to believe that the only problem is PPBK......

    3rd generation beekeeper Bret Adee gets it:

    "What's causing CCD? Experts say nobody knows. But Mr. Adee, who said he had long scorned environmentalists’ hand-wringing about such issues, said he was starting to wonder whether they had a point.

    Of the “environmentalist” label, Mr. Adee said: “I would have been insulted if you had called me that a few years ago. But what you would have called extreme — a light comes on, and you think, ‘These guys really have something. Maybe they were just ahead of the bell curve.’”

  15. #195
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    how do you know these aren't longtime beekeepers with hives coated with years of miticide treatments?

    Nothing here points to neonics causing CCD, and nether does your smoking, PCB, and dioxin analogies

  16. #196
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    Eugene, Oregon USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    Jim Lyon, gmcharlie and Barry have told us there is little to no CCD in Illinois or South Dakota and other keepers in neighboring Corn Belt States have expressed much the same on other
    forums despite the fact the Corn Belt is the heart neonic country:
    I think bee behavior expert Dr. Gene Robinson explains it best:

    "Surveys have been done that report on the severity of bee losses by location, by state. The U.S. Department of Agriculture generates maps of how big the losses have been in different parts of the country. There’s no strong geographic pattern. This is because CCD losses occur in places where the most commercial beekeeping occurs and commercial beekeeping in general is on wheels – beehives are trucked throughout the country for pollination purposes.

    There are several migratory routes that these hives follow. As many as two-thirds of the commercial honey bee colonies in America are moved to northern California for a period of two to three weeks just for almond pollination. CCD losses are greater in commercial beekeeping operations areas.

    In addition to pathogens, parasites and poor nutrition, pesticides are also implicated. The newer pesticides are much safer for humans. They also are being applied in ways that make them safer to humans, but they also have negative effects on beneficial insects."

    http://illinois.edu/lb/article/72/73513

  17. #197
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    Sacramento, Calif. USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    That's something else the pro-neonics folks don't want to talk about--the fact that a lot of the beeks reporting CCD losses are long-time beekeepers with many years experience. These aren't newbies or hobbyists, these are people who have been working with bees for decades, and yet they are suffering major losses due to CCD. Beeks like Steve Mayes, Bret Adee, Steve Ellis, Bill Dahle, Jim Doan, the list goes on and on.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentin...precipitous/2/
    "In a bizarre political twist, in their zeal to target neonics or any chemical for that matter, the Center for Food Safety and other advocacy groups have forged pacts with some of the most notorious and worst performing commercial beekeeping operations, who believe they can ride the activist outrage to a large legal settlement."

  18. #198
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    Apr 2013
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    Eugene, Oregon USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Lol, and of course the industry claiming that neonics don't harm bees isn't about money, right? They're just trying to "feed the world?" Lol, umm, ok.....

    I named several prominent beekeepers above who have experienced CCD and at least partially attribute CCD to neonics. Please provide your proof that those beekeepers are lying about neonics in order to get a big cash settlement.....

  19. #199
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    San Mateo, Ca, USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    ask a question to a bunch of beekeepers get a bunch of answers. It's not surprising some out there would consider neonics as a possibility. Then again they aren't scientists.

    of course then there is this Randy Oliver who is a biologist and a beekeeper who was able to model CCD (as monitored by Dr Mussen):
    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick...lony-collapse/

  20. #200
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    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    Default Re: 600 Hives Lost in Ontario--CCD/Neonics Suspected Cause

    Thanks for the link BD: http://illinois.edu/lb/article/72/73513
    It's actually quite thoughtful and in my mind pretty much on the mark and which mostly contradicts everything BD has been claiming for quite some time. If neonics were the sole cause of CCD (as the title of this thread claims) then there wouldn't be such variation between bee operations and the million plus hives they constitute which summer in areas surrounded by Neonic treated crops. One must look for VARIABLES and there are many. Forage in a given year, when they are moved to summer pasturage, when they are moved back out and where bees are wintered, what type of feed they are wintered on, pollen substitues, mite levels, mite treatments, nucing/brood break practices, nosema levels, nosema treatments, pesticide/fungicide exposure, bee types, age and history of comb.....just to name some of the most prominent. To single out neonics is just refusal to see that it dosent dovetail with the overwhelming body of evidence. I would be a fool to suggest that I have never had bees suffer any detrimental effects from them but then again I have no evidence that they have either and neither do their critics, only suspicions....like the title of this thread. Look at the big picture folks, try to see it all.
    i make no comment about the motives of other beekeepers except to say that anytime you choose to be included in lawsuits one must expect your motives to be questioned, rightly or wrongly.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

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