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Thread: CCD Research

  1. #101
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Jim...it gets more weird if you actually read what the Discussion states:
    “By incorporating the findings from this in situ study and other reports, we
    have validated the study hypothesis in which the initial emergence of CCD in
    2006/2007 coincided with the introduction of genetically engineered corn
    seeds treated with imiacloprid and other neonicotinoid insecticides.
    It's an imaginary contaminant.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
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  2. #102
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I see the issue.

    The major finding was that colonies overwintered with contaminated stores collapsed.

    That's it.

    Since we have a 30% over winter colony loss rate, it rang a bell with some folks.
    That is denied by two of the three study authors (including Dr. Lu). Ken (the beekeeper in the group) is the one that pointed out that the one surviving "treated" colony was clustered inside a feeder that likely had uncontaminated stores. This never made it to the write up of the study, and my suggestions to the other authors have fallen on deaf ears. Dr. Lu cites "transgenerational effects" (something that he studies in humans), the entomologist in the group thinks it is receptor binding during pupal stage.

    Please quote where in the study (or in any publication) that Dr. Lu gives this any consideration or credence. It is obviously what happened...and the fall feeding with undosed HFCS created an uncontaminated honey cap, delaying the collapse.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
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  3. #103
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    ...also note that although they could do their quality studies in their own lab and measure imidacloprid down to 0.5% in HFCS, they didn't bother to test what the bees were storing, or what was left in the abandonded hives.

    Remeber, Dr. Lu is the only scientist I've ever heard of as calling Wikipedia "the gold standard" for anything...let alone a definition of CCD. We are dealing with a lack of care and science so extreme that it is hard to believe it is as bad as it is.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
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  4. #104
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    'Why the delayed collapse?" IS a major research question. Why didn't they just 'drop dead' upon feeding of high doses of pesticide?

    We don't know.

  5. #105
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Here's a quote from the article:

    "So Lu, Warchol, and Callahan established new testing hives at three sites in 2012. They varied their methods somewhat, in part by testing bees’ exposure to both imidacloprid and another neonicotinoid called clothianidin. The results, they say, only reinforced their conclusion that pesticides are likely a major culprit behind colony collapse.

    As last winter approached, the number of bees in all their test hives steadily dropped, which is normal for that time of year. But while the control hives started to rebound in January, the pesticide-treated hives did not. Lu is now finalizing the study in hopes of publishing the results in a journal soon. One factor he is investigating is whether neonicotinoids do more harm to honeybees in colder temperatures."

    So, treated hives don't rebound. Hmmm.

    I can't wait to see the new study.

  6. #106
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    They were fed laced hfcs in the hive while the bees were also foraging, diluting any of the hfcs they were using as food. None of this has anything to do with how nectar/pollen containing imidacloprid would handle it, and again, there is zero evidence that hfcs evercontained imidacloprid.
    As I said before, all hives were.fed unlaced hfcs (in amounts we are not privy to) to get them up to weigjt....the honey cap was.pure, until.either the.bees got to the contaminated stuff, or were drawn through it by an absurd december feeding of hfcs/sugar patties above the.contaminated stores.
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
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  7. #107
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    We are dealing with a lack of care and science so extreme that it is hard to believe it is as bad as it is.
    And to this day Harvard continues to promote Dr. Lu's neonic work as if it had not been widely questioned: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsp...lony-collapse/

  8. #108
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Here's a quote from the article:
    Quotes from the Boston Globe to tell us about the quality of the science?

    There are two main papers in Boston, here is a quote from today's Boston Herald:
    Stiglitz, who also runs hives at a farm on Long Island, N.Y., the Fenway Victory Gardens and at the 
InterContinental Hotel, said the year-round program is intended to be long-term. - See more at: http://bostonherald.com/entertainmen....sUp61lps.dpuf
    ...but we don't have hives on Long Island, NY....we have hives about a mile or two (as the crow flies) from the rooftop where we were being interviewed....on Long Island in Boston Harbor. Even when you are being straight, it is hard to have a reporter get things right...when you are not straight, anything goes.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
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  9. #109
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Am I the only one to understand that the original study's findings were hailed as a breakthrough; Dr. Lu has since been funded to do a follow up study, which will (hopefully) be published soon; and we now know that contaminated stores can cause overwintered colonies to collapse in the US?

    I understand the findings. Harvard likes his work. The Boston Globe gave him a wonderful write up.

    Fellas, get over it already.

  10. #110
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    and we now know that contaminated stores can cause overwintered colonies to collapse in the US?
    What about "stores" would make one think that "contamination" that would be acutely toxic if fed to caged bees would be less harmful to bees confined in the winter?
    Contaminated HFCs has long been known to be toxic to bees (lots of off spec stuff killed a lot of bees.....HMF in this case). So you contaminate it with neonics and expect that because it is "stores" that the pesticide won't kill the bees? This is a breakthrough? On what planet?

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  11. #111
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    ....if the study authors were thinking about contaminated stores, don't you think they would have measured how much they were contaminated?

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  12. #112
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    That bus left the gate.

    Sour Grapes my man.

    Let's wait for the new study.

  13. #113
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Am I the only one to understand that the original study's findings ...
    I understand a lot of things...that Harvard advertised the results of the study before publication, released the study before publication, and used straight up press release as an article in the Harvard Crimson. None of this is science, and none of it is journalism.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
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  14. #114
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    I see lots of people dismissing the paper outright because of the dosage level of imidacloprid used, but did you actually read the paper, or are you just regurgitating the attacks and talking point against the paper put out by the pro-neonics folks?

    Here's how he arrived at the dosage level:

    "The range of dosages used in this study from 20 to 400 μg/kg were not only environmentally relevant to those reported imidacloprid levels by studies that are cited previous, but also lie within legally allowable levels, set by the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) as the tolerance of0.05 ppm (50 μg/kg) for corn (US CFR, 2010). Since there is no tolerance level for imidacloprid in HFCS, we applied a 10-fold concentrating factor, or 0.5 ppm (500μg/kg) of imidacloprid in HFCS, by taking into account the uptake by corn plants from seeds that are treated with imidacloprid. The 10-fold concentrating factor is very conservative compared
    to the reported average level of 47 mg/L of imidacloprid measured in guttation drops collected from corn seedlings germinated from commercial seeds obtained in 2008 coated with 0.5 mg/seed of imidacloprid (Girolami et al., 2009).
    Considering that honey bees were diluting the concentrations of imidacloprid fed to the hives with natural nectars foraged during the HFCS feeding months (July to September), honey bees may have exposed to imidacloprid at the dosage lower than 20 μg/kg in which is sufficient to render mortality in honey bees. Therefore, we are confident that the imidacloprid dosages applied inthis study would be comparable, if not lower to those encountered by honey bees inside and outside of their hives. Nevertheless, the finding of the loss of honey bee hives at the levels as low as 20 μg/kg of imidacloprid in HFCS raises the question of whether there is a no-observed-adverse-effect-level of imidacloprid (and most likely of other neonicotinoids as well) for honey bees."

    So, what exactly is the issue with the dosage levels used during the research? Are those NOT the levels set by the EPA? Are you saying that the guttation drops level of 47mg is wrong?

  15. #115
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    That bus left the gate.
    Sour Grapes my man.
    Sour grapes over what? I was anxious to hear the results of the study (I knew about it for a long time). I was appalled when I attended the first presentation (before publication)....the well known, well respected, and smart bee scientist sitting next to me was also appalled.

    Nothing would make me happier than to support the work some of my friends are involved in. There isn't much that I find more distasteful than trashing work that my friends are involved in. The truth and critical thought leaves me little in the way of options.

    I've detailed many big problems with the study and the write up...you've defended it without offering details.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  16. #116
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    So, what exactly is the issue with the dosage levels used during the research? Are those NOT the levels set by the EPA? Are you saying that the guttation drops level of 47mg is wrong?
    That number (47ug/l) is based on corn seeds germinating in small contained pots, not planted in a field. HFCS is not made from corn guttation (which comes when the plant has almost no mass), it is made from kernels of corn (when the plant has a lot of mass, a lot later in its life cycle). The amount of imidacloprid the plant is treated with as a seed coating is constant. In a field, it is constantly dissapating, degrading, and being diluted within the plant as the plant grows and adds mass.
    The big issue with the dosage is why it was changed part way through the study, and what was the thinking behind doing so. The quote you offer above about how the dosage was arrived at is curious because they came up with this dosage part way through the trial. These are not the dosages they initially started to test, and they offer no logic or reason for why it changed.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  17. #117
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Dean:

    You've basically run Dr. Alex Lu off of the Bee Club circuit (with some help).

    He's doing fine.

    Maybe he's just a poor presenter.

    Regardless, he was a guest.

    Sorry, but there's no excuse for how some of you have behaved towards the Doc.

    No matter how I try, I can't make you understand.

    Most of us have accepted his initial findings with some caveats.

    From the article, it looks like they were able to redo the initial study, and they have found similar results.

    We'll just have to wait and see.

  18. #118
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Are there any issues with this peer-reviewed/published article on the sub-lethal effects of neonics as a factor in CCD?

    http://www.sciencemag.org/content/33...1-f731e6d993eb
    Last edited by BigDawg; 07-02-2013 at 02:52 PM.

  19. #119
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Or what about this peer-reviewed and published article: Field Research on Bees Raises Concern About Low-Dose Pesticides

    http://www.sciencemag.org/content/335/6076/1555.summary

  20. #120
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Hold on a second.

    In his presentation he trashed some other work...work that he didn't understand...not hard work to understand.

    He critiqued the phorid fly study directly...stating that the authors claimed that the phorid fly was the cause of CCD (they didn't). He claimed that we didn't know who would fund such a study (the published study lists the funding sources).

    I am not making fun of Dr. Lu's accent or speaking style....my Chinese is limited to counting to two...in Japanese ...just trying to accurately transcribe what he said:

    Dr. Lu:
    “They actually published the paper...the paper got
    published”. “Never really able to demonstrate that worm
    were able to trigger CCD...so why did he make a
    publication like that
    (audience member shouts out, "Grant Money"
    Dr. Lu:
    yeah, didn’t know who actually
    supported that study, right?
    ...from the study itself:
    Funding
    :
    United States National Science Foundation grant DEB
    -
    1025922 supported BB. JD was supported by the Howard Hughes
    Medical Institute. CR was supported by a
    Genetech
    Graduate
    Student Fellowship and Project
    Apis
    m. JH and CS were supported
    by a California State University Program for Education and
    Research in Biotechnology Faculty
    -
    Student Seed Research grant.
    The funders had no role in study design, data collection and
    analysis, decision to publish, or preparation of the manuscript.
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

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