Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

CCD Research

53K views 244 replies 30 participants last post by  Tim Ives 
#1 ·
#209 ·
of course data is relevent....

...but what you claimed (and what I called you on) was that there was no data to support the claims made about the bioavailability of imidacloprid in soil buildup. I'm asking you if you reviewed the sources given in order to make that determination, or is your claim just a fantasy based upon reading the title?

deknow
 
#211 ·
Neonic contaminated talc dust has been shown to kill bees outright.

Pollen from wildflowers on the margins of neonic fields have been shown to have unusually high levels of neonics.

The 1/2 life of neonics in soil is far longer than that stated on 'the label'.

I'll agree that we need to examine the effects of entire formulations, and synergistic interactions between formulations, for their effects on Honeybee colonies.

The environmental pollution from neonics via translocation is as serious as the 'bee kill' issue.
 
#212 ·
Another issue that comes up is buildup in tree injections. When the USDA came in because of the Asian longhorn beetle with a plan to inject hundreds of thousands of trees with imidacloprid once a year for 3 years they made some curious claims:

1. That the dose would be effective in the tree tissue for at least a year.
2. That they would dose each tree 3 years in a row.
3. All of this was backed up by data on sunflowers and corn...which aren't trees.

I asked how they could think it would be effective for a year, and not be concerned about the levels of imidacloprid in the tree (completely unknown) after 3 treatments wrt to pollinators, soil, etc. I pushed really hard to get them to collect data.
They hired Jeff Pettis to do a study...he did a study on how much imidacloprid made it into the hives in the spring when (some) red maples in the area were injected according to the protocol. Unfortunately, it seems that flowers and leaves from the trees were tested for levels of imidacloprid, but not the bark layer that is responsible for killing the ALB....the one data point that would have been helpful in determining what a reasonable protocol would be was not collected. The one data point that could have reassured all involved that a lesser number of treatments would do the job just fine is lost.

Fortunately, they seem to be short on $$$ and having trouble following their own protocol. Nothing could be better for the program.

deknow

deknow
 
#213 ·
deknow:

You do not want to have colonies anywhere near conservation efforts to eradicate an invasive.

They're known to use very large amounts of insecticides/pesticides.

I'm reminded of those Italian beekeepers who went on a 'hunger strike' to protest pesticide use in an EU quarantine zone for the American Grapevine Leafhopper (a carrier of vine yellow disease).

You can't safely keep bees there.
 
#215 ·
deknow:

You do not want to have colonies anywhere near conservation efforts to eradicate an invasive.

They're known to use very large amounts of insecticides/pesticides.
An invasive what? All weeds and unwanted insects in crops are invasive. Thats why they are sprayed. Whats the distinction between conservation and food production?
 
#216 · (Edited)
It's probably alot safer to keep bees near neonic coated seed crops (after planting) than near an invasive eradication site.

Farmers are alot better at controlling the amounts of pesticides applied because of costs (they'll go broke otherwise), and they're producing food or feed.

Eradication programs use massive amounts of pesticides, they're very expensive, and they don't want to miss anything. For example, nobody eats trees, last I heard.
 
#221 ·
Biological control of loosestrife has shown to be effective only until the next flooding event both drowns the beetles and spreads the seed downstream. We saw little loosestrife bloom in 2009 and 2010 then the floods of 2011 set up a big loosestrife bloom in 2012.
 
#219 ·
Naturally occuring beetles or imports? Chasing one invasive w/ another.

I believe that Emerald Ashbore and Longhorn beetles are treated for by IV like feeding of the trees being infested by these beetles w/ pesticides. WLC probably knows what kind.
 
#220 ·
Yes I do. It's an interesting story when it comes to how they developed biocontrol agents (which are themselves 'exotics') for Purple Loosestrife and wetlands restoration.

However, my point is still the same: it's how neonics pollute the environment, and how that can account for winter colony losses that the Harvard study is actually addressing (IMNSHO).
 
#223 ·
gmcharlie:

You're welcome.

You pay for a technology, and you expect to get your money's worth, without any negative impacts.

We all know the dust issue needs to be fixed.

However, after reading the Goulson review, I can't believe that there is a soil type where clothianidin has a 1/2 life of over 15 years!

No farmer alive signed on for that kind of a surprise.
 
#226 ·
Well, soil type, and conditioners used, might explain alot of the discrepancies we're hearing about with regards to colony losses.

If you have the right soil type, the product has a low 1/2 life. The bees are fine.

If you have fuquay sandy loam, you're going to get residue build up. That could be a big part of the whole 30% winter loss issue.
 
#227 ·
If you have the right soil type, the [neonic] product has a low 1/2 life. The bees are fine. If you have fuquay sandy loam, you're going to get residue build up. That could be a big part of the whole 30% winter loss issue.
No, because the geographic extent of fuquay series soils is very limited and not much corn/soybeans/canola/sunflowers are grown in fuquay soil areas. Corn for all purposes map: http://schillerinstitute.org/strate...nal Files/e1-4-corn_for_all_purposes_usda.jpg
Uploaded with ImageShack.com
 
#228 ·
WOW thts intersting... The soils with the worst traits are located around where over 1/2 the package bees come from.........worst 1/2 life... best bee production.... from that I could conclude there a good thing!
GA package producers have pretty much 0 wither losses!
 
#229 ·
Jim:

Good job on the CRP native grasses. But. I was largely referring to the cost of treating trees, etc., w/ insecticides.

Bluediamond:

I think that the only way to answer the soil type vs colony losses question would be for someone to take available data and create a GIS map with overlays for colony losses and soil type.
 
#233 ·
http://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine...se-disorder/nXvIA5I6IcxFRxEOc8tpFI/story.html
Winter came, and they saw nothing. The hives seemed fine. “We were starting to get discouraged,” Warchol says. “Dick and I were talking, saying, ‘Wow, there’s really nothing going on.’ ” Lu had the same reaction. “At that time,” he says, “I thought my hypothesis was wrong.”
also from that article, wrt dosing:
On July 1, 2010, they started the pesticide regimen, beginning with very low doses, to make sure they didn’t kill the bees right away. They upped the amounts after four weeks to levels that Lu says were on the conservative end of what bees encounter in the real world — through syrup made from corn treated with neonicotinoids or nectar and pollen collected from contaminated flowers and crops.
which also makes zero sense. if they anted to make sure they didnt kill the bees outright, when they upped the dosage, they would not have made the "new lowest dose" twice what the "old higher dose" was.....not to mention that bees don't encounter imidacloprid in HFCS in the "real world".

deknow
 
#235 ·
Well that should be easy to prove, using the same methods. Make the test people drink neonicitiniods at a level just low enough to not kill them outright. Later, double the dose. You will have proof that neonicitiniods are damaging to human brains, and maybe even fatal to the human.
 
#237 ·
GMcharlie:

I probably consume more neonics than those bees did.

First of all, I would have chosen clothianidin.

Secondly, I wouldn't have used the CCD term in my hypothesis. Just plain 'impact on Honeybee health'.

Thirdly, if I wanted to test HFCS for contaminants, I would have done so directly, although there is no evidence for neonics in HFCS.

Let's face it, Lu got lucky.
 
#241 ·
Tim,

I would really love to see your sugar and treatment free approach working in other locations, too. No sugar, no treatments and you are fine. That would be an easy solution to the trouble the bees are in.

I have been keeping bees on honey and no treatments for ten years now. Still those bees are struggling to survive and thrive.

My apiaries are surrounded by hundreds of hectars of corn and canola. This year I lost all my flying bees in one day through canola spraying. Yes, the colonies did "survive". But as you can figure, loosing flying bees is not doing the bees any good.

The effects of pesticides I observe is loosing flying bees continiously, not the hammer like this year, but an accelerated death of the flying bees. We see a lot of queen failures. Also the brood nest shrinks down to nothing in the midst of the bee season. Which is also very remarkable.

My bees' situation got better, since I avoid being too close to fields treated with neonics. The closer you are to the fields, the higher the damage. 50 meter is better than 15 meter. Also I trap pollen a lot. I try to trap as much of the pollen of corn and canola (and asparagus...) and feed pollen patties instead. The appearance and wintering got much better, treatment or no treatment.

So it must be location, that sugar and treatment free is sufficiently working for you. You supposingly have alternative pollen sources. We have a pollen dearth during summer, because we don't have much uncultivated land and no forests. The bees jump at corn pollen and forage for it, because there is no alternative. It is said, that bees sort of sense the pesticide. And avoid it. If the location doesn't provide any alternative pollen, the bees are forced to take it.

I also suspect it has something to do with water they collect. Because what other reason could produce differences in placing a hive closer or further away from the fields? Must be water. Morning dew or something. I provide water for the bees, too.

Since trapping the pollen, feeding pollen patties and providing fresh uncontaminated water the situation got much better.

Tim - some questions:

1. How far away do you place your hives from the fields?
2. Are there alternative pollen sources?
3. Is there any woodland nearby?
4. Where do your bees take water?

Just want to understand the different results we get, both sugar and treatment free and embedded into industrial agricultural fields.

Thanks,

Bernhard
 
#242 ·
Interesting Bernhard, especially since you eliminated the biggest common denominator of losses I hear or seen. The feeding of sugar.

1) 3 of the 9 yards are in small wooded areas with crop fields across the road(s) 100meters. Other 6 yards 1-30 meters from corn/beans.
2) alfalfa fields but most of them are Gmo and usually gets cut at bloom. Do have problems with the new high speed realcutters. Doesn't give bees chance to escape. I've participated past 4 years in the USDA testing. This year pollen samples are being analysed.
3) woodlands very minimal, little 5-10 acres plots scattered. Most trees are in fence rows between fields along with various wildflowers, which might be 10 meters wide.
4) water sources drainage ditches. My house is the only yard that gets the freshest water. Mostly to keep bees out of the neighbors pool down aways.

Uncommon denominators. You have canola.

Hives are overwintered in 3 deeps,wrapped, insulated tops. Right in the Lake Michigan lake effect snow belt.

Genetics-- local swarms/cutouts. Haven't bought bees since 06'. Raise my own queens from the earliest swarm cells.
 
#243 ·
I was playing and experimenting a lot to crack the problem of the symbiosis between varroas and bees. Certainly the varroa itself is not (!) the main factor in the game. To me it appears varroa is just the executioner.

Anyway, I can say sugar as a main cause can be ruled out, too. Of course honey is a lot better for the bees, no doubt. But most essential nutrients bees get from pollen, so honey plays a rather minor part in bee nutrition.

I also tried large hives after being in contact with Oscar Perone. But that doesn't seem to make a difference. The broodnest shrinked in midst of the season, even with young queens, lots of brood combs and pollen. Followed by superseduring.

Either is has to do something with the nutrional quality of pollen. Or contamination with pesticides.

This study showed that the number of pesticides found in pollen were correlated with superseduring:

http://www.extension.org/pages/6377...ve-project:-abiotic-site-effects#.Uig7MWthiSO

I reckon it is a mixture of insecticides and fungicides that kills of the beneficial microbes that ferment the bee bread. Fungi play a major part in bee bread fermenting.

I tried to summarize what I think is going on here:
http://www.immenfreunde.de/forum/download/file.php?id=134

It's malnutrition plus continual premature death of foragers that leads to a collapse of the hive.

This is why good nutrition really enhances the situation. Be it through pollen patties feeding - or keeping bees in a hive with lots of stores all year round. Or provide enough brood comb to make up for the premature losses. Replacing the dead bees quickly with new bees.

I am really looking forward for the results of the pollen sampling in your apiary. I would really appreciate if you share the results with us.

Bernhard
 
#244 ·
Tim, what is the density of the bee population in your area.

In a 2 mile radius within my home apiary there are about 200 colonies wintering and about 50 stationary through summer.

There is a high density of bee colonies in Germany anyway. In 2012 there were 622,000 colonies. Officially. Since then 30-50 % died during the 2011/2012 winter. About 300,000 colonies. Those were replaced with package bees from Italy and Spain. For comparison: In 1991 there were 1,214,702 colonies in Germany.

Nowadays we have 10 colonies per square mile (statistically) which is drop from 20 colonies/square mile in 1955. Losses are about 15-30 % each winter - but much higher on a local scale. The local high losses can not be found in the same region year after year. The opposite. It seems that the losses come and go. There is no real pattern.

So what is the bee density around your apiaries?
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top