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Thread: CCD Research

  1. #81
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    How did Liu determine that the colony crashes were not due to mites? Did he do anything to eliminate this threat? Did he do any counts to verify the number of mites present? Did he test the bees for virus infections? Without checking these problems he is only guessing that the crashes were due to imid.
    Dave

  2. #82
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    QUOTE=WLC;965688]Dean:

    Throw all the tomatoes you please. Just don't call up the folks at "The Bulletin of Insectology". [/QUOTE]
    The editor of the journal did offer to allow me to submit a critique for peer review and possible publication. Unfortunately, at the time, with the deadline I would have to meet, I had too many other things going on to give it the attention it deserves. No one pays me for my time to do such things, and growing a business that pays for me to eat and live had to take priority.

    If you have any further questions, I will be happy.to answer them in the beesourxe letters to the editor forum. Now, if that sounds like a disingenous offer given that there is no letter to the editor forum on beesource, I guess that would be fair, no?

    Deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  3. #83
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    We have a real world neonic test under way today. It is called the ban in Europe. I happen to like that I live in a country that regulates based on law and science. Europe often regulates based on who bitches and whines loudest and longest. In this case we get a free test due to Europe's regulation. I really wonder what excuses the anti pesticide folk will have in a couple of years when CCD is statistically the same in Europe as it is today? I suppose they will claim the problems that remain are due to residues in the fields and crops and hives. They will make such claims as long as any residue is detectable. And as analytical chem is better every day at detecting less and less of anything they can likely ride that horse for five years or more while they pray for another chemical to blame. At least rational people will recognize that no statistically significant change in CCD is no change and says that neonics are not the primary problem. Of course it is already clear neonics are not the primary problem.

    If you will not sign a real name do not bother responding to me. People who will not sign a real name are afraid of being found to be frauds.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Dean:

    Please tell me that you didn't contact 'The Bulletin' to try and suppress the study.

    I'm picking up on a bias towards Dr. Lu here.

    When have any of you gone after a scientist before, like some of you did in the case of Dr. Lu?

    Who instigated the 'witchhunt'?

    I don't think that it was you.

    No. I attended two separate presentations by dr lu on the study. I emailed all 3 listed authors a few specific questions (like, if there were queens found in the collapsed hives.....a detail that is blurred between the study and the public presentarions).
    dr lu replied that he would only amswer my questions in the letters to the editor section of the journal....which doesnt exist.

    Deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  5. #85
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Yet again, we're not addressing the question: why did the Harvard study have the impact that it did?

    Deflection isn't a useful course of action in a discussion.

  6. #86
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    I contacted "the bulliten" after the lead study author told me to submit my questions to the journals letters to the editor section. I could find no was to do so on their website, so I contacted the journal to ask how to do so.

    Next up.....Dean is accused of the crime of reading the study.

    Deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  7. #87
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    So, they gave you the 'brushoff'?

    It's a polite way of saying, it's none of your beeswax.

    Seriously, why do you think that so many U.S. scientists doing Honeybee research are publishing overseas?

    It's because it's the last refuge. The shop is closed here in the U.S. .

  8. #88
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    So, they gave you the 'brushoff'?

    It's a polite way of saying, it's none of your beeswax.

    Seriously, why do you think that so many U.S. scientists doing Honeybee research are publishing overseas?

    It's because it's the last refuge. The shop is closed here in the U.S. .
    Europe, the last refuge of free speech? In Europe, feelings are considered as valid a repeatable scientific findings when it comes to this stuff. Deknow has been polite enough to answer your questions but you can't seem to take them at face value. I would not have even engaged as you're not actually listening, you're simply pushing your agenda. With you there's always a conspiracy afoot from unseen evil corporations to destroy...whatever cause you've taken up.

    I honestly feel sorry for you. Try taking a deep breath, turning off the computer, and going outside to enjoy the outdoors with your bees.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  9. #89
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Quote Originally Posted by ArtSmart View Post
    Right here you nailed it. You are willing to point the gun into the woods and pull the trigger saying it is not proven that there are people there. Now consider a possibility that there is somebody there. There is always a chance. How come the reason and logic that makes sense in every day's life is thrown away in the case of our food supply? When something doesn't make sense more often than not money is involved. The fact that something is not proven doesn't mean that it is not true. You are willing to take a chance with other people health and the whole balance of nature because you have your money on the line. Which we all can relate to, but be honest, it is a chance, science has nothing to do with it. And everybody knows that in the long run it is a loosing bet including you. It is just a matter of time. But when (or if) it is proven without any doubt, they will come out with some new poison and there will be no proven link with some other environmental disaster and this particular poison for another 10 years.
    Real easy, because the options are not only worse, but ludicrious........... If you yell fire in a crowded theater and there is none, its a crime, but who knows some day you may be right...

    Right now a bunch of goofballs with no real stake in the game are screaming about something they are totaly clueless about.... 2 years ago it was cell phone towers.........

    Sorry, but Most here screaming the loudest, have no real stake. they are not in Neonics areas, they only run a few hives, and they don't farm......Those that feed the world, are in the most part the most eco friendly people you will ever know, and do more on a DAILY basis to help feed and improve the world, and their own lives, than the sreaming clowns.

    Guys like Tim Ives, Ron Householder myself and thousands of others are in the thickest areas of "the problem" and yet doing great... that doesn't matter to these "experts" Ask Tim which Scentist has been to his place, or responded to emails......

    These guys are the same ones screaming about unsafe food, high prices, and goverment subsidies all in the same conversations. they have no answers other than to scream and whine about something they personaly are pretty clueless about, they site what they read as Fact, without regaurd to the methods or logics behind them.......

  10. #90
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Why is it that Threads about CCD, neonicetinoids, imidiclorprid, Monsanto, Bayer, and such seem to always deteriorate into I don't know what to call what they turn into?

    It seems to me that if WLC can't trash Randy Oliver's reputation he wants us to agree w/ his point of view about Lu's study. It appears as though most of y'all don't think much of the study. Does that make you BeeWashers too.

    Why did the study have the impact it did? Who the heck knows? Maybe the way things are done in Europe, especially France, has something to do w/ how the study had its impact. Maybe there was overwhelmingly more public/non-beekeeper support for the beekeepers, what they were suffering and what they wanted to see happen to what they perceived as their problem, supported by Mr. Lu's study.
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  11. #91
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Why was Lu's study done at Harvard? Not exactly a Land Grant Ag School, is it?
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  12. #92
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Yet again, we're not addressing the question: why did the Harvard study have the impact that it did?

    Deflection isn't a useful course of action in a discussion.
    It had its effect because of the sensationlized media coverage it got, and because the general public knows nothing about how research should be conducted.
    Dave

  13. #93
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Burrup View Post
    How did Liu determine that the colony crashes were not due to mites? Did he do anything to eliminate this threat? Did he do any counts to verify the number of mites present? Did he test the bees for virus infections? Without checking these problems he is only guessing that the crashes were due to imid.
    Dave
    You guys that think the Harvard study is so great wanted to know why I think it is a joke, well I posted my questions about the study, I would like to hear your answers. His conclusions that Imidicloprid was the cause of the colony crashes cannot be determined from the data he presented.

    Dave

  14. #94
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Your right Mark, we do end up in the gutter with the discussion.... But I can tell you this, Randy's Objective review of the study has one again reminded me of the saying Garbage in, garbage out... and it pleases me to no end that Finaly these conversations are taking place. A lot of On the fence guys are actually reading and thinking for there own for once. Seems to me a while back these were completely one sided conversations.

    I am tickled pink that once these garbage articles are posted, not everyone is climbing on board, and MANY are actually thinking and listening to the ones with a real information instead of quoteing someone elses works.

  15. #95
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    D. Coates:

    "I honestly feel sorry for you. Try taking a deep breath, turning off the computer, and going outside to enjoy the outdoors with your bees."

    I did. I had to smoke a queen out of a cage in one hive, and then add supers and a strap on another, all while hoping not to get struck by lightning.

    And, of course, I got 8 messages on my phone while it was turned off.

    ...then, I get to read the latest responses.

    Besides, I already had this conversation with deknow a while ago.

    sqkcrk:

    You've got it backwards. Randy Oliver 'trashed' Alex Lu's reputation. Yes, he had some help.

    Dave:

    Yep, it's definitely 'science by newspaper'.

    I did present my view on what has happened to US honeybee research as a result of certain precedents and events.

    I agree, the experimental design was flawed in many ways.

  16. #96
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    ...we end up in the gutter when people give over their critical thought to others. Believe what newspapers write about science (instead of reading it themselves).

    Here is a pdf with some of my thoughts. Not every point will be clear (there are powerpoint slides, not an essay)...I'm happy to discuss these points with anyone that has actually read the study and is prepared to look back at it closely.

    http://beeuntoothers.com/LuStudyCritique.pdf

    I won't stoop down to those that defend the cult aspects of "science" over anything substantive...I think it's clear that i've looked at this very closely.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  17. #97
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Dean:

    We both know that I've read the study. I still think that it was mediocre at best. There's alot wrong with the media hype aspect, and the responses by some folks who should know better.

    It was a completely hypothetical study.

    I still think that it was a brilliant hypothesis that deserves to be revisited.

    And, now that I understand Dr. Lu's description of what occurred, I can see the connection to the hypothesis, first proposed by the French, that it was contaminated stores that were causing overwintered colonies to collapse.

    I, for one, eagerly await the publication of his follow-up study.

    I'm not a scientific cultist, but I will object to a mob lynching when I see one occurring.

  18. #98
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Even the reported basic bee management isn't believable as it is written up. Hives were full in May and never required swarm prevention, never superd, never spun frames out, never added empty comb....and they were all being fed all summer.

    Nothing in the study write up even suggests that contaminated stores are on the minds of the authors. Nothing about the procedures (feeding pure HFCS to get hives up to weight for winter, feeding hives in December that had 15 full deep frames of capped stores in late September?

    None of it makes any sense, and no explanation is offered...yet, Dr. Lu thinks policy should be changed based on such results?

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  19. #99
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    Beyond the fact that neonics have never been documented to be present in hfcs an even more specific question is this. According to Bayer Thiamethoxam and Clothianidin have been the pesticides of choice for treating corn seed and that Imadacloprid has been used on fewer than 1% of corn acres in the past 8 years. Assuming this is true then why would those doing the Harvard study choose to lace HFCS with a chemical so rarely used in corn and how meaningful would the results really be.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  20. #100
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    Default Re: CCD Research

    I see the issue.

    The major finding was that colonies overwintered with contaminated stores collapsed.

    That's it.

    Since we have a 30% over winter colony loss rate, it rang a bell with some folks.

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