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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    centerville, IA, USA
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    107

    Default Be gentle I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    Here is the Question. Say I wanted to start a colony from say a package in April in Nuc box 5 frame and say if everything worked out right in say 4 weeks give or take, Put an second 5 frame box on it. Then in say few weeks when it was full, pull the second box off and put queen in it. Then I should have two good nucs now right. Then let the two new boxes fill a second set of boxes. Wouldn't I not have 4 nucs with the addition of a couple of queens in the two new boxes. then let the 4 5 frame boxes grow into 2-3 5 frame boxes for the winter. If you understand what I am trying to say. thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,196

    Default Re: Be genital I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    May I recommend spell check. I'm sure you meant gentle, not genital. Unless you were being funny.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    centerville, IA, USA
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    107

    Default Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    spell check is what did me in to began with. Sorry No funny anywhere here

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Be genital I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    welcome 6010. mark is kind of a perfectionist.

    yes, you could do that. especially if you don't mind feeding if there isn't much nectar flowing.

    they will need a strong nectar flow or syrup feeding if you expect them to draw new comb.

    at the end of summer, you will want them strong enough and heavy enough to make it through winter.

    how strong and how heavy depends on your location. this is why getting hooked up with some local beekeepers or joining a club is a good idea.

    good luck.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Phoenixville, PA
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    579

    Default Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    I suggest letting them build up into strong colonies the first year and splitting the second.

    The year before last I had only one survive winter, my first with significant losses. It went bonkers and in May I found a half dozen queen cells. I split them into two single deeps with the queen cells and had three strong hives going into winter. Early last April I did a "walk away split" per Michael Bush and later the prior split threw the biggest swarm I've caught to bring me back to five colonies at no cost, if you don't count the two lethargic packages I bought in an effort to replace losses that died despite my best efforts.

    These five hives along with three others given away, those losses and a few failed colonies including TBH experiments originated from my first package eight or so years ago. As a small scale keeper, if I really tried, I'd have more colonies than time if I managed for increases through walk away splits. I prefer my splits with mutt queens who are acclimated to our location over packages.

    BTW, by Michael's bee math, a walk away split raises a queen in the same time as any other method with very little effort.

    Good luck and hope this helps

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Genola, Ut
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    56

    Default Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    Yes, if everything goes perfect. It may not be as simple as pulling off a box and putting a queen in it. You will need to split the stores and brood as evenly as possible. Also, you'll have to keep a close eye on them. I've found that the hives I start in 5 frame boxes seem to build up quickly and swarm. Seems like a good experiment.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Cattaraugus,New York, USA
    Posts
    345

    Default Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    If you are looking to build numbers that quickly, I would suggest buying 5 frame nucs from the start. It seems that you want to run 5 frame boxes, which is OK, but not the normal course. If you want to get to your 4 nucs from 1 by end of summer, olan on buying mated queens for your new splits and plan on feeding a lot of sugar syrup. Also plan on things not going exactly how you plan.

    My reccomendation would be to let the hive build up the first year, and split the following spring. I would also suggest that you begin with more than 1 hive.
    Allegany Mtn. Bee Farm
    Quality Queens and Honey from Western New York

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    centerville, IA, USA
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    107

    Default Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    Well truth is I will be starting with three packages. One started the traditional way in a 10 frame deep hive and that will be my "Honey" hive. The second hive will be started in a 10 frame but will be the support hive for the Honey hive donating frames of brood to the to it to build up the "numbers" as quickly as possible. I will keep it in a single deep form spring through early summer keeping population down by the donating the frames of brood to the honey hive. then let build up to a second box for stores for it to winter. Then the third package will be split as much as possible within reason of course. stopping by mid July/august so all the splits can catch-up and make the most of the fall flow of nectar. I realize I will be going through a lot of sugar syrup this next year. At least that is the game plan. Other wise if I start in the traditional way I will have three hives with no honey. And this would be an interesting project

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,573

    Default Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    a lot of the fun in beekeeping is trying things and see what happens. you will learn as much or more from mistakes as anything, (ask me how i know )

    as was mentioned above, things don't always go like you think they might, but if you like to experiment, and aren't easily frustrated, go for it!
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Great Falls Montana
    Posts
    4,000

    Default Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    An awful lot of anal retentive here to go with the genital. Your idea was plainly stated, to me at least. You could indeed expand your numbers just like you described. There are devils in the details though. Getting queens for those splits, when you need them can be a problem. The second splitting would find queens readil available and cheap though. Bees do very well building up in five frame nuc boxes because they can better keep the brood nest warm. Do yourself a favor and do not use a screened bottom board as it makes that climate control harder for small clusters in a nuc. Good luck.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    centerville, IA, USA
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    107

    Default Re: Be gental I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    You are right Vance G the details are a devil, I have a queen breeder couple hour drive from me, and was kind of hopping there might be a queen cell or two show up in some of the hives. the I would be transfer as needed. I would not do any splits unless there was queens. thanks for the input

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    27,196

    Default Re: Be gentle I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    Quote Originally Posted by weldingfreak6010 View Post
    Here is the Question. Say I wanted to start a colony from say a package in April in Nuc box 5 frame and say if everything worked out right in say 4 weeks give or take, Put an second 5 frame box on it. Then in say few weeks when it was full, pull the second box off and put queen in it. Then I should have two good nucs now right. Then let the two new boxes fill a second set of boxes. Wouldn't I not have 4 nucs with the addition of a couple of queens in the two new boxes. then let the 4 5 frame boxes grow into 2-3 5 frame boxes for the winter. If you understand what I am trying to say. thanks
    Sure, that should work, if you have the know how and the flows come and come well. It is good to set goals high. Be prepared to fall back to fewer when they don't fill out as you hoped.

    If you overwinter your nucs successfully in two story five frame nucs you should be able to split some of those nucs come Spring, May, maybe April, into three nucs each, by buying cells or queens.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,009

    Default Re: Be gentle I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    I can tell you this. I had one hive go from 5 fraems to 20 in four weeks. The next did not draw out 10 full frames all summer. So don't be surprised when you find the bees work according to their math.

    Early in the spring they will draw comb like mad. Later in the summer the only bees I could get to draw comb was my strong double deep colony. So they made comb for two nucs I had put together late in the season. I am probably goign to have to start feeding those nucs soon. I don't think they have enough honey to get through the winter. So far so good though.

    So if you get the timing right I can see your idea working. you will have to manage the details though.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Clackamas Oregon
    Posts
    740

    Default Re: Be gentle I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    I am with Dan on this one. First year started with a couple nucs and was given a third hive, drawing the foundation was the challenge. They seemed to want to fill up the lower box and not move up. They swarmed on me before drawing the pierce plastic (before I learned to paint wax on it). I had one go queenless and tried giving them brood from the other hive until it was too weak and did not make its own queen. The third box I gave to the in laws on the other side of town. All he did was report it swarmed after filling both boxes and filling the top of the telescoping hive with honey. 3 hives, 3 different results. Next year I had drawn comb. I put some in swarm traps (got 2) did a split and started 4 nucs. Its all about the drawn comb (IMHO). SQWRK, did I spell nuc correctly? I got red lines all through this docoument.
    “Why do we fall, sir? So that we might learn to pick ourselves up” Alfred Pennyworth Batman Begins (2005)

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    centerville, IA, USA
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    107

    Default Re: Be gentle I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    I do not know if it will make a difference but i am going to be using wax foundation for every thing. Also I am waiting for the second box to fill up if it doesn't then no harm no foul. it is not like i am taking a double deep 10 frame and splitting it up into 10 separate 5 frame nucs and hoping they take-off before winter hits like some do.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Great Falls Montana
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    Default Re: Be gentle I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    There is no harm no foul anyway. If you split too soon and slow the bees down, one can always recombine. Heavily feeding and supplying high quality pollen sub to suppliment what the bees gather will grow a lot of bees too. They are your bees and if you aren't depriving wife or children, do whatever you want. Just keep the equipment small to match the cluster and expand as the population does. Follower boards of Aluminum clad styrofoam work well and you can easily expand or contract the area the bees have to heat.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Winhall, VT
    Posts
    1,066

    Default Re: Be gentle I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    To encourage the bees to draw comb in the second nuc box just move a frame of brood up from the lower box once it is full. Bees hate to have undrawn comb next to brood and will move up and proceed to work the foundation next to it. That is what I would do.
    Raising Vermont Bees one mistake at a time.
    USDA Zone 5A

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    centerville, IA, USA
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    107

    Default Re: Be gentle I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    Thanks I was just wondering about that keth

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Haymarket, Virginia
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    197

    Default Re: Be gentle I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    Can someone indulge my curiosity?

    Along with all the other caveats that have been mentioned, is this plan reliant upon a location having a fall flow? Recombining any weak nucs to prep for overwintering?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    966

    Default Re: Be gentle I am new to this. the Subject is making splits

    If you don't have a flow and you want comb drawn, you'll have to feed a lot of sugar syrup.

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