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Thread: Off the wagon

  1. #21

    Default Re: Off the wagon

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    To my recollection, one scientific study demonstrated that small cell was effective in reducing Varroa in AHB, but another study did not find the benefit in regular bees.
    To my knowledge several studies suggested that small cell had no impact on varroa in EHB. Small cell is the natural sized cell for AHB....so I don't think it has ever been tested in that population.
    Those who claim small cell eliminates varroa have always also claimed that they kept EHB.
    This has all been hashed and rehashed countless times on Beesource.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  2. #22
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    So, there are mites in NZ, but not in Australia.

    How long will it be before a well intentioned hobbyist inadvertently orders, sends, or carries a mite or two to Australia?

    Sorry for your bad luck, OT. Thankfully you have enough experience to stay in the game.
    Try it. What could happen?

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    To my recollection, OT's 'study' was to determine whether or not small cell would carry the day. I don't remember him testing for VSH, Russian or any of the other genetic selections.....just small cell.
    Is that about right OT?
    Yes my first intention was purely to test small cell hives against large cell hives regardless of bee strain. However as time went along it became so fascinating learning how to get the bees to properly draw the comb and run the hive, that I can see how the small cell advocates get so engrossed just in the process. No VSH bees were available when I started, so I just introduced queens from as many lineages as possible as sc combs with bees became available. I did also breed from what seemed like the best performers although 2 years is not enough time to let that process properly play out.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Do they have Africanized bees in NZ?
    No there are none (we know of), and this might be a factor. The two arguably best known US treatment free commercial beekeepers would be Dee Lusby and Beeweaver, and bees from both of them have been shown to include African genetics. As to African resistance, some reading I did showed that as various Africanised populations around the world have first encountered varroa mites, at first, a lot of hives are lost. But the bees adapt very quickly and tolerance is achieved so fast that Africans are generally regarded as resistant. EHB are much slower to adapt, if at all.

    Re the paper you linked WLC, interesting, but to me, the experiment was done wrong. They put 100 cells each of various sizes into Africanised colonies then later did a mite count to see which size had the most mites. The bigger the cell size, the more mites. But this result was entirely predictable as it is already known mites prefer larger cells. To me, a better experiment would have been to transfer an Africanised colony into a hive with already built large cell comb, all the comb being large cell (5.3 or bigger), and then see what happens, if the bees were still mite tolerant, or the large cells make them unable to resist the mites..


    Quote Originally Posted by JStinson View Post
    So, there are mites in NZ, but not in Australia.
    How long will it be before a well intentioned hobbyist inadvertently orders, sends, or carries a mite or two to Australia? .
    Well that's always a worry, but does not mean they have to surrender to it. The longer they can keep mites out, the more money the industry saves. 99.9% of people are biosecurity aware and would try to ensure they didn't do anything to transfer mites, but it's that 0.01% idiots you have to watch, some of them with twisted thinking who might think introducing mites would actually be a good thing.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    small cell to me just makes common sense. if the mites can reproduce several times quicker in drone comb (due to mainly size of cell) and length of time in cell. Having smaller worker cells has proven to increase the hatch rate up to 1 day quicker. the mites might survive but their reproductiveness decreases.

    I think there are some who don't want small cell to "assist" the bees in making a recovery. Lots of money to be made in replacing dead bees and selling treatments every year.

    Like Old Timer said it is about the bees developing hygienic behavior mainly. It takes time and the right kind of bees. Nature is not in a hurry just us humans.

    So finding ways to assist our bees is what being a beekeeper is about.

    Best of luck Oldtimer.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    *

    The longer they can keep mites out, the more money the industry saves. 99.9% of people are biosecurity aware and would try to ensure they didn't do anything to transfer mites, but it's that 0.01% idiots you have to watch, some of them with twisted thinking who might think introducing mites would actually be a good thing.
    I've had it suggested to me that the mite introduction to Hawaii was industrial sabotage. IMO, we will never know.

    Our situation and my experience with bees on Hawaii island matches what Oldtimer has said. Year around brood, no ferals, crowded bee situation and bees that don't survive without treatment.
    Last edited by Gino45; 06-26-2013 at 07:17 AM.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    Just curious, how do they handle the mite problem when the US imports Australian bees for almonds and other pollination? I was under the impression the bees returned to OZ afterwards....

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Yes my first intention was purely to test small cell hives against large cell hives regardless of bee strain. However as time went along it became so fascinating learning how to get the bees to properly draw the comb and run the hive, that I can see how the small cell advocates get so engrossed just in the process. No VSH bees were available when I started, so I just introduced queens from as many lineages as possible as sc combs with bees became available. I did also breed from what seemed like the best performers although 2 years is not enough time to let that process properly play out.

    No there are none (we know of), and this might be a factor. The two arguably best known US treatment free commercial beekeepers would be Dee Lusby and Beeweaver, and bees from both of them have been shown to include African genetics. As to African resistance, some reading I did showed that as various Africanised populations around the world have first encountered varroa mites, at first, a lot of hives are lost. But the bees adapt very quickly and tolerance is achieved so fast that Africans are generally regarded as resistant. EHB are much slower to adapt, if at all.

    Re the paper you linked WLC, interesting, but to me, the experiment was done wrong. They put 100 cells each of various sizes into Africanised colonies then later did a mite count to see which size had the most mites. The bigger the cell size, the more mites. But this result was entirely predictable as it is already known mites prefer larger cells. To me, a better experiment would have been to transfer an Africanised colony into a hive with already built large cell comb, all the comb being large cell (5.3 or bigger), and then see what happens, if the bees were still mite tolerant, or the large cells make them unable to resist the mites..


    Well that's always a worry, but does not mean they have to surrender to it. The longer they can keep mites out, the more money the industry saves. 99.9% of people are biosecurity aware and would try to ensure they didn't do anything to transfer mites, but it's that 0.01% idiots you have to watch, some of them with twisted thinking who might think introducing mites would actually be a good thing.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    No LOL.

    A commercial beekeeper who used them told me, and this is on the commercial section somewhere, that the Ozzy bees get miserably infested with mites soon after their arrival and only just make the season before perishing, because of their lack of varroa resistance.

    It would not be economic to send bees back to Ozzy, but also, the Ozzies would certainly not want them back even free, for several reasons.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    I don't know of any small cell studies that were done to the satisfaction of small cell advocates.
    Regression over time is usually the issue.

    Bees with reported AHB traits seem to be a common factor with regards to small cell success (Lusby and Weaver).

    Have you tried using the drone comb removal method? Put in frames with drone foundation or PF-300s, then remove, freeze, scrape, and return?

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    Me? Yes, still do drone larvae removal sometimes.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    Oldtimer:

    I think that you might want to look into some of the IPM methods used in dealing with Varroa.
    Like screened bottom sticky boards, screened inner cover, PF-300s, etc. .

    I often see that they're used as part of selectinng for Varroa resistance.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    Thanks for the advice WLC.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    You might want to try for your own attenuated mites/viruses as well.

    http://211.144.68.84:9998/91keshi/Pu.../1304.full.pdf

    They studied the spread of Varroa and DWV in Hawaii. It's appropriate since Varroa recently arrived in Hawaii as is has in NZ.

    It took 3 years for the mites to harbor a single dominant strain of DWV.

    Perhaps if you could split your way, for 3 years, you might have a chance at obtaining hives with attenuated mites/virus.

    It's gotta work better than the bond method.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    I think large scale splitting would just delay the process, however where I am the process has probably already occurred. I've read on Beesource that the final DWV that we are meant to end up with is also the worst of the DWV variants. But I didn't see that mentioned in the article. Have you got anything on it?

    My personal feeling is that bees have lived with DWV since time immemorial, and had it pretty much controlled, it was only very rarely seen pre varroa. So they obviously have some resistance. Just, not enough, now that inoculations of it are being injected directly into their blood streams. Bees are being overwhelmed. But as some resistance already exists, pretty likely in my opinion, that bees will slowly select towards more resistant hives, this will be brought about simply by breeding from the best performers, even though we don't specifically select for DWV resistance. In a hundred ort two hundred years, DWV will be a none issue, a bit like what's happened with acarine disease.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  15. #35

    Default Re: Off the wagon

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I don't know of any small cell studies that were done to the satisfaction of small cell advocates.
    And surely never will
    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Regression over time is usually the issue.
    At the risk of reopening this entire can of worms....part of the UGA study used regressed bees from an established small cell beekeeper. Got the same results.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    I find it somewhat remarkable that many folks are clearly having some degree of tf success, yet no one seems to be able to explain the mechanism. Only that there seems to be some level of resistance..... at least for some folks.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  17. #37

    Default Re: Off the wagon

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Only that there seems to be some level of resistance..... at least for some folks.
    Hmmmmm....this could be taken a couple of different ways Jim. Some level of varroa resistance in some folks bees....or.....some folks resistance to the concept of tf?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    ....dont have time to post in depth at the moment....just want to say that I appreciate your efforts.
    Deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Hmmmmm....this could be taken a couple of different ways Jim. Some level of varroa resistance in some folks bees....or.....some folks resistance to the concept of tf?
    Yes.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Off the wagon

    Quote Originally Posted by ElderBombadil View Post
    Did you check out this site http://scientificbeekeeping.com/

    Its very well written and his research on using powder sugar to slow down the mites was interesting. What got my attention is that he said that due to the life cycle of varroa he treated once a week for 12 weeks.

    It could be worth a try.
    You need to read real close because Randy swears the 3 methods of sugar do NOT work....includeing treating daily for 2 weeks... to get all the phoretic mites...



    I agree, I don't think we have mite restiant bees anywhere here in the US, we do have some that by grooming, and the queen shutting down manage to survive. I found the last 2 years my treatment free bees had there own breaks in brood cycles without my input

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