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water in honey

14K views 49 replies 13 participants last post by  Edaw 
#1 ·
I just did a cutout with some new honey/nectar. the hive was pretty productive for only a week and a half of residence. I crushed/strained and ended up with a somewhat runny couple of quarts of honey-ish nectar. Is it OK to heat it on low to evaporate some H2O? If so, is there a temp threshold so I don't ruin the goodness?
 
#2 ·
I don't consume honey from cutouts, you never know who may have sprayed them with what before you got there, just a precaution. Sounds like you have high moisture content in the honey/nectar anyways and there is no practical way to evaporate that much water, just feed it back to the bees. John
 
#10 ·
Why did you Post this Thread? Did you already have your mind set? I guess if you insist on an answer to your question. Heat the nectar/honey to 100 degrees temperature and keep it there until you had reduced the moisture content to 18.5% or a little less. Aren't you smart enough to figure that out yourself? What do you think you will have once you have done so?
 
#11 ·
> Is it OK to heat it on low to evaporate some H2O?

If you mean heating on the stove that is probably not going to work well. A dehumidifier is a better tool, but only you can decide if you want to go to that effort for a relatively small amount of "honey". Here's a thread on that issue:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?245152-Honey-moisture

Note that feeding it back to the bees does not necessarily mean it is lost to you. The bees may put it back in comb and "dehumidify" it along with the rest of their nectar. Then you can harvest it later. :D
 
#13 ·
Well, Mark, the OP is a fairly new member, joined this May, and I thought he asked a fairly innocuous question. It seemed to me that some of the responses he got were rather harsh.

IMHO there are other, more suitable targets if you want to have some fun. :rolleyes:
 
#15 ·
Well, Mark, the OP is a fairly new member, joined this May, and I thought he asked a fairly innocuous question. It seemed to me that some of the responses he got were rather harsh.
I was giving my point of view. Was I being harsh by suggesting he dump it or feed it to the bees he took it from? I'm sure he wasn't calling me an old fart. He wouldn't be that disrespectful, would he?
 
#19 ·
WilMorris, I think for someone to call unripe honey "garbage" was not the best choice of words, but I'm sure they didn't mean it to be taken literally. I've tasted unripe honey from my hives lots of times, and it tastes pretty darn good, but yes it is "runny" and not fully ripe, and when ripened it tastes even better. I have not had to remove or evaporate more than a couple percent of moisture from harvested honey ever, and I do it by blowing warm dry air over the combs for a time, maybe as much as a couple days. In your case, its already in jars, so getting the moisure reduced won't be as easy but I'm sure it can be done, maybe someone can give you an answer without being sarcastic about it. This is a great forum IMO, don't get the wrong idea that its not, plenty of people willing to give help here, just stay away from the name calling when you don't get the exact answer you were looking for, someone will eventually hit the nail on the head for you. John
 
#21 ·
Look, I had no intention of insulting anyone and I am truly sorry if I hurt anyone's little feelings.
I am not saying that wild honey is garbage, never even implied it. what I am saying is that honey containing water, nectar, fruit juice, or ANY other substance is not "honey as all the above ingredients will result in fermentation of the honey. If not below 18.5% moisture honey is not honey. it is something else. In Pennsylvania it is against the law to label such a product as honey. even if the processer evaporates the substance to 18.5% it is not honey. It clearly states that it must be done by the BEES! As one believes in calling a spade a spade I do not feel that any artificial manipulation of the product by the beekeeper, processer, or anyone else can possibly be honey, and in my Opinion is garbage, because it has been contaminated, and I would not eat it, any more that I would eat sugar water with imitation maple flavoring in it. even it were 50 to 90%real maple syrup. people eat out of the trash at McDonald's. and some have said it taste fine. but in My Opinion it is garbage. I guess we are all entitled to express our opinions as long as someone does not bother someone else. I do not care what anyone else says. honey is the great Chief's purest gift, it does not spoil, it does not ferment, it provides energy, and taste great. if the girls did not do it, it ain't right.

If I am the old fart that is fine too, I will even allow wilmoris to have his opinion. and wish him luck in all his endeavors. I shall think of him kindly while he eats his home made honey and curses us who have a difference of opinion.
 
#32 ·
As one believes in calling a spade a spade I do not feel that any artificial manipulation of the product by the beekeeper, processer, or anyone else can possibly be honey, and in my Opinion is garbage, because it has been contaminated, and I would not eat it, any more that I would eat sugar water with imitation maple flavoring in it.
This is quite amusing. Here you are telling us that any action by the beekeeper to reduce moisture content results in "garbage", while today, in another thread you advocate treating hives with honey supers with powdered sugar!

You have to decide which is most important to you. The honey or the bees. I would dose the hive down well with powdered sugar about three times over the next 9 days, then do a mite count.
So apparently removing water from honey makes it garbage, but honey + sugar is fine! :lpf:

:ws:

Note, I have no objections to treating with powdered sugar, I am simply pointing out the inconsistency displayed here. :lookout:

(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the full post the quote came from)
 
#22 ·
According to USDA standards, here:
http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3011895

US Grade A honey can have up to 18.6% moisture.
US Grade B honey can have up to 18.6% moisture.
US Grade C honey can have up to 20.0% moisture.

Note that there are other factors besides moisture that affect honey grades, but all of the above are still legally defined as honey by the US Department of Agriculture.
 
#24 ·
Tenbears, according to your last post, honey containing water will ferment and is not honey? I'm sure you didn't mean that. Anyway, you are also saying that anyone (in Pennsylvania or anywhere else I assume) who artificially removes any amount of moisture from their honey/nectar to get it down to 18.5% or less, and then extracts it, bottles it, and labels it as honey is being deceptive to the consumer in your mind, and in reality as far as you are concerned is garbage. You have created your own personal definition of what honey should be, and like you said, you are entitled to your opinion. I'm sure that you have insulted a good number of beekeepers with this philosopy of yours, but as you said, you don't care what they think or say. And as far as being "truly sorry for hurting anyone's little feelings", I don't get that impression at all, sorry if that offends you. John
 
#25 ·
It is not what I am saying. it is the law. Notice it says transformed BY and is the natural product OF the honey be.

"HONEY SALE AND LABELING ACT
Act of Jul. 20, 1974, P.L. 537, No. 184 Cl. 31
AN ACT
Defining honey and regulating its sale and the labeling and sale
of imitations of honey; and providing penalties for violation.
The General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
hereby enacts as follows:
● Section 1. The terms "honey," "liquid or extracted honey" "strained honey" or "pure
honey" as used in this act, shall mean the nectar of flowers that has been transformed
by, and is the natural product of the honey-bee, taken from the honeycomb and
marketed in a liquid, candied or granulated condition.
● Section 2. (a) No person shall sell, keep for sale, expose or offer for sale, any article
or product in imitation or semblance of honey branded as "honey," "liquid or extracted
honey," "strained honey" or "pure honey" which is not pure Honey.
● (b) No person, firm, association, company or corporation, shall manufacture, sell,
expose or offer for sale, any compound or mixture branded or labeled as and for
honey which shall be made up of honey mixed with any other substance or ingredient.
● (c) Whenever honey is mixed with any other substance or ingredient and the
commodity is to be marketed, there shall be printed on the package containing
such compound or mixture a statement giving the ingredients of which it is made;
if honey is one of such ingredients it shall be so stated in the same size type as are
the other ingredients, but it shall not be sold, exposed for sale, or offered for sale
as honey; nor shall such compound or mixture be branded or labeled with the word
"honey" in any form other than as herein provided; nor shall any product in
semblance of honey, whether a mixture or not, be sold, exposed or offered for sale
as honey, or branded or labeled with the word "honey," unless such article is pure
honey.
● Section 3. Any person violating the provisions of this act shall be guilty of a summary
offense and on conviction thereof shall be punished as provided by the "Crimes Code"
● Section 4. Nothing in this act shall be interpreted as preempting, usurping or replacing
the jurisdiction or activities of the Federal Government in connection with the labeling
or mislabeling of honey or imitations thereof.

Honey is not Honey until it is capped. bees do not cap honey until it reaches 18.5% or less. so call it what you like adding nectar, dehydrating nectar and calling it honey according to the state of Pennsylvania is not honey. and cannot even be labeled honey, and sold. , It is not my philosophy although I do agree with it. allowing nectar into honey, and calling it honey is simply a way to extend the volume of the product and sell it as something that it is not. " Pure Honey. that would equate to gathering 100 gallons of 15% moisture honey and adding 3.5% water. are you proposing that that is an acceptable practice. I have not intended to insult anyone. if someone is so thin skinned as to take offence to someone who takes a purest attitude, then they need to find another planet to live on.
 
#27 ·
The section quoted below clearly states that regardless of what PA law says, as long as you follow the USDA rules, you can market honey in Pennsylvania graded and labeled to USDA standards.
● Section 4. Nothing in this act shall be interpreted as preempting, usurping or replacing the jurisdiction or activities of the Federal Government in connection with the labeling or mislabeling of honey or imitations thereof.
Also, the PA law quote in post #26 above says nothing about dehydrating honey to meet a particular moisture content.
 
#26 ·
Tenbears, I'm fairly certain that it has been done, that is, adding water to low moisture content honey to bring it up to 18% so that it goes further, not something that I have ever thought of doing, but as the saying goes, money is the root of all evil, so yes its probably been done.

Section 1 of the Pennsylvania honey law is totally correct, it's made by honey bees. YOU have added your own personal feelings to the rest of the law (going beyond what is written) based on your "purest attitude". The state of Pennsylvania always has been nit-pickers about most everything that goes on within their boundaries, JMO. John
 
#29 · (Edited)
LOOK, Nectar is not made by the bees it is made by flowers, and it is not honey until processed by the bees to a moisture content of below 18.5% it is just that simple. interpret it how you like the fact is if it is not 18.5%moisture it is not honey yet. USDA B and C grading is because they have caved into pressure put on by lobbyists who represent the guys who want to cheat. you said it yourself. MONEY is the root of all evil. Not to mention the USDA grading system is total bunk with no uniformity, and no inspection system.
 
#28 ·
No it does not as long as it is TRANSFOEMED BY the BEES. as clearly stated in line 3 section 1.
section 4 only deals with the federal "Jurisdiction" or "activities" it does not yield total authority to the federal laws but simply does not preempt their Jurisdiction. To make it easier to understand it means that if a labeling violation, violates both Pennsylvania and federal law, punishment under Pennsylvania law would not constitute appeasement of any federal law violations, thus the federal government would also be able to prosecute.
But Hay, it does not matter to me one bit what someone shoves in their mouth. I suppose you would take a bottle of chateau de Rothchild 1941 and mix it up with some grape juice and call it wine too. sorry I think that is garbage too. I guess it all comes down to interpretation, The law, what constitutes honey, liberals interpreted things liberally, conservatives interpreted them conservatively, everyone thinks they are right and those who do not agree with them are wrong.
 
#33 ·
Reducing moisture content of high moisture content honey is a long held practice in the commercial beekeeping community. What would you have someone w/ 5 barrels of 20% moisture content honey do? Dump it or reduce moisture by artificial means?

I may seem to be hypocritical here, but I recommended dumping a quart of honey (according to the OP's question) because it seemed to me more trouble than worth. Whereas, when one is making a living by honey production and sales, and that honey is not fully capped yet has to come off of hives, dehydration is the way to go.

Many people have Hot Rooms w/ fans and dehumidifiers in them to help dry down the honey before extracting.

TenBears is being literal, which is his privledge.
 
#30 ·
WilMorris, my suggestion is to take what you have, and use it, store it for a while like you would cured honey, and then see where it goes after you try it again. Im thinking you will eventually agree with Mark, that the best solution is not throw it in the garbage but rather make proper use of it and feed it back to the bees
 
#34 ·
I had some further thoughts on this. It's only a quart or a quart and a half. Why not just keep it in the refrigerator and use it up as soon as possible. Refrigeration should keep the high moisture from going bad. Or slow it down I suspect.
 
#35 ·
It disheartens me to see you revered regulars being offensive to each other. Many of us new people hold you in high regards for your wisdom and willingness to help us! Will just wanted to salvage something, he wasn't trying to sell it, so the USDA rules aren't applicable in his case. Haven't you ever wanted to make use of your honey crop even when something goes wrong? I had a bucket of honey with too high-water content which fermented. I didn't want to dump it in the garbage and it certainly can't be fed back to the bees, so I made MEAD with some of it. Thanks for the advice of dehydrating, I wish I had known back then...
 
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