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  1. #141
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Sergey: Patented seed is really expensive. No one destroys it nor does anyone buys lots more of it than they need. How much you need is a relatively simple mathematical calculation. Unopened bags would normally be returned for a credit. Saving and reusing excess seed isnt a good farming practice because a somewhat higher rate would have to be planted in the next year to account for a lower anticipated germination.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  2. #142
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Sergey: Patented seed is really expensive. No one destroys it nor does anyone buys lots more of it than they need. How much you need is a relatively simple mathematical calculation. Unopened bags would normally be returned for a credit. Saving and reusing excess seed isnt a good farming practice because a somewhat higher rate would have to be planted in the next year to account for a lower anticipated germination.
    Jim, Thank you for clarification. My point was that in my hypothetical scenario, Monsanto would follow the same intellectual property patent law restricting re-use of GM-bees. Thus, beekeepers would be obligated to buy bees every year. So far, Monsanto has been succeeded implementing this policy. I do not see any reason why they should change their practice if they in fact will create a GM-bee? It is complete speculation - I responded to the BayHighlandBees suggestion to talk about mites

    I am not aware that the same patent policy is implemented to F1 hybrids. Obviously, F1 seeds in second generation will produce only small fraction of the original "F1". It is classical Mendel's genetics. It is not applied (genetics) directly to GMOs.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Monsanto would follow the same intellectual property patent law restricting re-use of GM-bees.
    Please explain how you see this working. A seed is stationery, a bee isn't. A seed doesn't crossbreed with other seeds, a bee does.
    Regards, Barry

  4. #144
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Uhh...

    Bees AND pollen...

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Obviously, F1 seeds in second generation will produce only small fraction of the original "F1". It is classical Mendel's genetics. It is not applied (genetics) directly to GMOs.
    I am not talking about planting second generation hybrid corn which would be not just illegal but pretty stupid as well. I was referring to the fact that as any seed ages it's germination rate decreases. Seed companies do resell older carryover seed inventory but must recertify it's germination rate each year.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    I am not talking about planting second generation hybrid corn which would be not just illegal but pretty stupid as well.
    and that is why this point is pretty much a non issue to farmers,
    most only hold the objection to its principle
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Please explain how you see this working. A seed is stationery, a bee isn't. A seed doesn't crossbreed with other seeds, a bee does.
    It is not about seeds or bees, it is about general approach regarding GMOs. Monsanto's approach is that GMO may not be re-used for reproduction - every year farmer must buy a new GMOs. Even GMo from the previous season are not permitted to use. This Monsanto's approach was supported in US courts many times. Thus, the model is viable. Since, the approach works beautifully for Monsanto, my guess is that they would use it for other GMOs. Bees are no difference: you would require to buy GM-bees from Monsanto every year. The trick is that in order to obtain patented GMO, you need to sign a contract with Monsanto - this contract will determine what is proper and what is not. If you do not fulfil contract's obligations, you will be sued (successfully) by Monsanto. It is not my invention - it is just Monsanto policy.
    Last edited by cerezha; 06-24-2013 at 01:54 PM. Reason: computer did not cooperate
    Серёжа, Sergey

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    It is not about seeds or bees, it is about general approach regarding GMOs. Monsanto's approach is that GMO may not be re-used for reproduction - every year farmer must buy a new GMOs. Even GMo from the previous season are not permitted to use. This Monsanto's approach was supported in US courts many times. Thus, the model is viable. Since, the approach works beautifully for Monsanto, my guess is that they would use it for other GMOs. Bees are no difference: you would require to buy GM-bees from Monsanto every year. The trick is that in order to obtain patented GMO, you need to sign a contract with Monsanto - th5s c6ntract w643d deter05ne what s pr6per and what 5s n6t
    Pure fantasy

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    Pure fantasy
    Absolutely! Do you have a better idea? Please, share.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  10. #150
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    I am not talking about planting second generation hybrid corn which would be not just illegal but pretty stupid as well. I was referring to the fact that as any seed ages it's germination rate decreases. Seed companies do resell older carryover seed inventory but must recertify it's germination rate each year.
    Strange. In Russia, we used to use corn seed for years - if they even just 80% good, what is the problem? Just plant 20% more. If I recall properly, people find corn seeds in Pharaoh pyramids and grow plants from them ...3 thousand years later. Also, there is seed-bank in case of nuclear "winter" somewhere up north, in Iceland (?) - they are planning to keep seeds for decades... I am sure they have a corn as well. Native Indians and many others store/use/plant corn/mase...
    Last edited by cerezha; 06-24-2013 at 03:18 PM.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  11. #151
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Jim is absolutely right on that,

    Sergey, we use our own wheat, barley and oats for seed, cleaned from the previous years crop. We do an on farm germ test to ensure proper germination before the seed is sent to the cleaners.
    Last year we had bought some Oat seed from a local dealer, which turned out to be old seed, 2-3 years old. We were un aware of the seeds age and bought it with the understanding of a 90% or higher germ test. He did not do that germ test, our crop did not come up, he was liable for the cost of the seed.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  12. #152
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Bees AND pollen...
    Ah, what's your point?
    Regards, Barry

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Both pollen form GM plants, and seeds (spilled from trucks) have been known to contaminate organic crops.

    As for GM bees...

    I've already pointed out that Remebee is a transgene vector and goes off target.

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    ...Sergey, we use our own wheat, barley and oats for seed, cleaned from the previous years crop. We do an on farm germ test to ensure proper germination before the seed is sent to the cleaners.
    Last year we had bought some Oat seed from a local dealer, which turned out to be old seed, 2-3 years old. We were un aware of the seeds age and bought it with the understanding of a 90% or higher germ test. He did not do that germ test, our crop did not come up, he was liable for the cost of the seed.
    It is great! You should continue doing so and than, may be you do not need Monsanto? The biggest danger of the GM-products - it depletes the bio-diversity and alternates/contaminates the genome(s) of the non-GM creatures. It is just a crime. If I remember correctly, nearly all ancient, local maize in SoAmerica is contaminated with Monsanto genes these days. That maize was there couple of thousand years before Monsanto and now it is practically gone.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    ... must recertify it's germination rate each year.
    They teach us in 4th grade how to do so: put 100 seeds between two layers of the filter paper in the vet chamber (our favorite was Petri Dish) and let them germinate. Week later, count how many plants you have = %% of germination. I would suspect that storage conditions are not optimal is seed go bad after just few months of storage.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  16. #156
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    Sacramento, Calif. USA
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Both pollen form GM plants, and seeds (spilled from trucks) have been known to contaminate organic crops.
    "Contrary to many statements to the contrary, no organic farm has ever lost organic certification due to accidental contamination from biotech crops. Not once."
    http://monsantoblog.com/2009/03/16/organic-cake/

  17. #157
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    San Mateo, Ca, USA
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Sergey,
    would it be a good idea to use last year's flu shot or should you get the one targeted for the upcoming season?


    [QUOTE=cerezha;962095]It is not about seeds or bees, it is about general approach regarding GMOs. Monsanto's approach is that GMO may not be re-used for reproduction - every year farmer must buy a new GMOs. /QUOTE]

  18. #158
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    San Mateo, Ca, USA
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    They had corn in Pharaoh's Africa? I thought it was a native american plant that Columbus brought back to Europe from his trip to the new world?

    sure, if you put the seeds on ice in an ice vault it will keep (same applies with horse seamen), but anytime I grow old corn seeds, by the third year it's pretty worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Strange. In Russia, we used to use corn seed for years - if they even just 80% good, what is the problem? Just plant 20% more. If I recall properly, people find corn seeds in Pharaoh pyramids and grow plants from them ...3 thousand years later. Also, there is seed-bank in case of nuclear "winter" somewhere up north, in Iceland (?) - they are planning to keep seeds for decades... I am sure they have a corn as well. Native Indians and many others store/use/plant corn/mase...

  19. #159
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by BayHighlandBees View Post
    Sergey,
    would it be a good idea to use last year's flu shot or should you get the one targeted for the upcoming season? ...
    Indeed, it is good idea for virus vaccine because virus changed constantly. It is nothing to do with GMOs.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Monsanto & Bayer Working On Varroa Mite Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by BayHighlandBees View Post
    They had corn in Pharaoh's Africa?...
    Apparently not:
    "There is a persistent myth that seeds from Egyptian tombs with ages of over 3,000 years were viable. The myth was reportedly started by scam artists selling "miracle seed" designed to capitalize on European Egyptomania of the 1800s...In 1922 a pea found in Tutankhamen's tomb supposedly germinated and was soon introduced as a new variety, but historians and horticultural experts believe that the origin was a fraud and that the pea was actually bought from a vendor at a Cairo market."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_viable_seed
    Серёжа, Sergey

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