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  1. #1
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    Sep 2011
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    Corvallis, OR
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    Default Hogan trap out sequence

    I'm starting a trap out from a five-foot diameter oak tree, hoping to use the Hogan method to get the queen.

    Goals:
    --get the queen and all (or nearly all) of the bees out
    --rob out the honey
    --seal up the cavity

    My question is what to do once I have the queen in the trap. Options:

    1. Close up the tunnel once the queen is in the trap, and move the queen and all trapped bees to a nearby empty hive. Place grass/branches in front of the entrance to trigger reorienting. Continue to move frames of bees at dusk from the trap to this new hive as the trapout progresses. When all bees are out of the tree, shake remaining bees from trap into the hive, and let the colony rob out the honey from the tree. Move bees all of apiece back to home apiary.

    Problems: Likely flow of bees from new hive back to trap. Possible risk of the whole colony absconding back into the tree during rob-out period?

    2. Move bees (including the queen) to home apiary in segments. Close up the tunnel once the queen is caught. When all bees are out, move the trap with remaining bees home, then bring out a different strong colony to rob out the tree.

    Problems: Lots of moving bees. No vehicle access to home apiary makes moving bees a pain.


    I like the elegant solution (#1) of keeping all the bees on site, letting them rob out their own honey, then bringing them home. Less disturbance of the bees, less hauling bees for me. Has anyone had luck doing this?

    Mark

    Entrance tunnel in place. Going to add the box tomorrow morning.

    13%u00252520-%25201.jpg
    Last edited by Luterra; 06-10-2013 at 04:26 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Park City Ky
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    Here is what I would do. Just a suggestion.

    It may be a pain as you stated, but, I would take starts as soon as I got 3 to 5 pounds of bees in the trap to a new location, at least a couple of miles away. I would do this by removing frames from the trap to a regular hive. Leave the trap in place. Check to see if you got the queen. If so, great, If not, either order a new queen and insert, or insert new eggs and let them make a queen. If you don't need/want the new hive, sell it, or combine it with another hive.

    Reset the trap with brood comb and frame of unsealed brood, and as soon as you have 3-5 pounds of bees, repeat above. You may find that a good tree will yield 12 to 20 pounds of bees. If you don't want additional starts, you could consider selling them as a queenless nucs, or you can join with any other colony you have.

    As each start is taken away, it weakens the feral colony. If it takes longer than 48 hours to get 3 to 5 pounds of bees in the trap, you have severly weakened it. At that point install/activate the funnel and when no more bees are coming out from the tree, close off the trap entrance and tunnel and then move the last bunch of bees, and let other feral bees rob out the honey from the tree, or seal up the entrance to keep another swarm from entering the tree and setting up house.

    I have never left trapped bees in the immediate area, and my fear would be that they may want to go back to the original feral colony. I find that removing 3 to 5 pounds of bees, as they accumulate in the trap, hastens the demise of the feral colony. As bees are taken away there are fewer bees to gather pollen/nectar, and tend any capped brood. If you activate/install the funnel and let all the bees accumulate in the trap, you may find yourself having to place 3 or 4 chambers on the trap, before you get all the bees out. I have seen this, and it did work, and the complete trapout yielded 2 deeps and 2 shallows full of bees. By the time the tree was depleted, the trap had brood, pollen, and lots of honey in it.

    cchoganjr

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Summerville South Carolina
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    10

    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    Hi, If you will look on ebay you will see a trap I designed that appears to be a sure way to get the queen over and laying eggs in 5 to six days. While it would be wrong to guarantee 100 percent it sure works so well. I would say that something would have to make an exception that it did not work. This set up will allow you to get the queen and all bees over with just a few stages of trapping. It is listed on ebay as ultra nuc box.

  4. #4
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    Feb 2010
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    Park City Ky
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    Quote Originally Posted by josephus1 View Post
    Hi, If you will look on ebay you will see a trap I designed that appears to be a sure way to get the queen over. It is listed on ebay as ultra nuc box.
    How about a link. I went to ebay and searched, ultra nuc box It did not come up.


    UPDATE.... IT IS UP NOW. FOUND IT...... ultra nuc box

    cchoganjr
    Last edited by Cleo C. Hogan Jr; 06-13-2013 at 07:41 PM.

  5. #5
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    Summerville South Carolina
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  6. #6
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    Apr 2011
    Location
    lee county, fl, usa
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    814

    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    Cleo, I have a new computer and don't have instructions you emailed to me last summer--could you send them again?

    My co-worker's son found a bee tree (he is a future beekeeper and I think he wants me to set up a trap out for the fun of it. We want to leave the queen--I would use starts for a couple small hives, depending how strong the tree bees are.

    I have the pre made trap out, and the red cone is in at this time. I still have a screen and tape on outer tunnel where I can easily apply to the tree, and it sounds like it's about 4-5 feet from the ground. I haven't seen it yet to determine if I will have a problem with other entrances.

    I will know when to pull trap as to not depleat the tree bees too much?
    Thanks, hope I'm not hijacking this thread...so sorry if I am.
    "Rule Three of beekeeping...Never cease to feel wonder" Laurie R. King--
    March 2010; +/- 30 hives, TF

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    Corvallis, OR
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    I have eight frames in the trap, all drawn and one with brood. The one with brood was 100% covered with bees, all of the other frames except the far outside one were about 30-60% covered, and the field bees were starting to store nectar in nearly all of the frames. I'm thinking to bring two more brood frames next week, which will give three brood frames in the box. Right now they are treating the trap as a honey super that just happens to have some brood in it. I'm thinking that with more brood they may begin to view it as a brood chamber and the queen might come out to lay. I'm not planning to take away any bees until I give up on getting the queen, as I'm thinking that crowded conditions will make the queen more likely to come out (though of course also more difficult to spot).

    Interestingly, the hive is way more active now that I have added the trap. It is possible that they had all available space plugged out with honey in the tree and were not foraging intensely until I added the extra space.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    adair county, kentucky, usa
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    I just built a Hogan trap and I have it set up on a tree now. I don't claim to know much about bees since I am only in my second season. I am lucky enough though to have Cleo Hogan as my mentor.

    The bees are moving in and out of my box with no problem and I have some drawn comb in my trap hive. I've noticed some bees are staying on that comb. I haven't tried to lure the queen out yet. I'll probably install a frame of open brood in a few more days and see if I can tempt her into coming into the trap. Once I get the queen in the trap I'm going to place her and all the bees, with frames. into another hive body and start them out like you would a new split (giving them foundation and feeding). but I will leave the trap in place for a day or two more and catch as many of the straggler bees as I can. I don't think I'll try the robbing thing I would be afraid they would want to move back into the old hive. This is just my opinion which is worth about as much as a box of rocks. However if Cleo Hogan has time to answer this post he can tell you exactly what to do, and I'll be heeding his advice, also.

  9. #9
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    Jun 2013
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    adair county, kentucky, usa
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    I see Cleo posted a reply while I was writing mine. So disregard most of what I said. Thanks

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    It took me a few minutes to figure out who Bill91143 is, but, I think I know now.

    If this is Bill T. I would say your advise is worth more than a box of rocks. You did right well in making yourself a 5 frame nuc from one of my hives. (HA)

    It is beginning to get late for trapping here in Central Kentucky. In a couple more weeks the queens will begin to cut back on laying eggs, and they will not be needing more room which you are providing her in the trap. Trapping for the queen is easier in early Spring when the queen is looking for any open cells to lay eggs. Later in the year, she has plenty of room, and then the only reason she will come into the trap, is the odor from the unsealed brood you gave her. If she doesn't need the room in the trap for eggs, she may go back into the tree, and the bees will likely use the trap to store Winter stores of honey. If this occurs, (starts storing honey in the trap), and if you want to eliminate the colony, activate/install the funnel and get all the bees out of the tree. If you were just wanting starts, or to get a queen, you might as well wait until next Spring. Let the colony build back up for Winter.

    If you take a queen, this late in the season, you may very well leave the feral colony without a way to make themselves a queen, due to fewer viable eggs in the feral brood nest.

    If you are going to try for the queen, check your trap often, so she doesn't stay in the trap for a few days before you check, and all the eggs in the tree gets capped, If you take the queen, and all the brood in the tree is capped, they cannot make themselves a queen. Then the tree colony dies. You will have eliminated your cash cow.

    cchoganjr

  11. #11
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    Sep 2011
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    Corvallis, OR
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    Thanks Cleo for the quick response. I think I will take your advice of taking bees home in 3-5 lb increments. Given the modest amount of bee traffic at the entrance and the fact that we are in peak flow here right now, I would be surprised if there is more than a single deep worth of bees. But we shall see.

    I see that you recommend leaving the tunnel open and repeatedly baiting the trap until most of the bees are out. I will have to try that. Is there any advantage to keeping the tunnel open once the queen has been captured?

    As for robbing, I might take a hive out there to do the robbing just because I'm interested to see what sort of honey is in there. If I did that it would be after I extract in late July/early August, during a relative dearth of nectar. Or I might just let the feral bees have it. Regardless I would like to get most of the honey out before sealing it up, as the landowner is very attached to the tree and I suspect that 50+ lbs of honey would accelerate rot inside the cavity.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    Quote Originally Posted by Luterra View Post
    . Is there any advantage to keeping the tunnel open once the queen has been captur.
    Not if you are going for elimination of the colony.

    If you are taking starts, (and I see you are not), then, leaving the tunnel open helps to get a better mix of bees for the start quicker.

    Taking a hive and letting them rob out the honey is a good idea, as some trees will have several pounds of honey in the tree. Might as well go to help your hive through the Winter.

    cchoganjr

  13. #13
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    adair county, kentucky, usa
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    Cleo, I just built a second trap and installed it on a Bedford stone house that has a hive of bees in the exterior wall between the stone and the framed wall. Do you have any suggestions for getting the bees out that differs from getting them out of a tree?
    Thanks,
    Bill T.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Casey, Il, USA
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    960

    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    Quote Originally Posted by josephus1 View Post
    Hi, If you will look on ebay you will see a trap I designed that appears to be a sure way to get the queen over and laying eggs in 5 to six days. While it would be wrong to guarantee 100 percent it sure works so well. I would say that something would have to make an exception that it did not work. This set up will allow you to get the queen and all bees over with just a few stages of trapping. It is listed on ebay as ultra nuc box.
    What is the premis of this ultra nuc box
    why would it work. Better than a hogan style trap

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    Harley Craig.... Hopefully he will explain the premise for his trap. I looked at it, and, I must admit, I don't understand it.

    If you can reasonably expect 100% guarantee to get the queen, then, that is a big jump forward for beekeeping and trap outs. I mean, this is big news.

    I have been working on trapouts for over 25 years, and I cannot expect 100% to get the queen. Not even close. Trees with few entrances to seal would have a probability of perhaps 70% - 80%. In buildings the probability goes down to perhaps 40% to 50%, and those probabilities are based on lots of factors like the queen looking for any cells to lay in, good honey flow, lots of bees, feral source crowded.

    In fact, in the method that I developed, and have shared with hundreds of beekeepers, was not developed to get the queen, but rather was developed to take starts, with the right mix of bees, from a good source, and use that source year after year. In early Spring I have taken a queen, but, normally I return her to the tree and take the bees. I accidentially lucked up on the process while doing a screen cone funnel trapout. What I was looking for was a way to get the right mix of bees for a good start, (similar to a swarm) which you don't normally get with a screen cone funnel method unless you wait until the very end.

    I still use the screen cone funnel method occasionally, and did quite often when I just wanted to trap the bees and eliminate the colony. I never did a tremendous number of eliminations because it takes time and trips. I left my traps set up year after year and just took two or three starts to increase hive count.

    I hope this new method will live up to the stated results you can expect. This would be a giant leap for beekeeping, and I am always looking for new ideas and procedures. In reading posts about the Hogan Trapout Method, lots of people have already improved on the method. Especially in mating the trap to the feral colony. Lets hope this new trap will be a leap forward. I certainly do.

    cchoganjr

  16. #16
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    May 2011
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    I got a queen in my trap out!!

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    Wooo HOOO!

  18. #18
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    adair county, kentucky, usa
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    I checked my trap that I have on the tree and I got approximately 3 more pounds of bees again tonight, but still no queen, maybe tomorrow!

    Wrong picture. This picture is of a trap I just installed on a house. I sure am having problems getting the correct pictures on here. Guess that is what happens when an old man tries to learn new tricks.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Bill91143; 06-15-2013 at 08:21 PM. Reason: wrong picture attached

  19. #19
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    Summerville South Carolina
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    Hi. I am sure of the method because I have had the success with it. The slider bar allows you to set the trap from the outside without going into the box if you do not want too. It allows for just taking field bees, Just taking house keepers, Taking both and leaving it from there. Or a few maneuvers with get all the bees even the queen. Step one is engaging the slider to have all access in and out of the tree of all bees coming and going. First by bringing in a brood frame with eggs. Checking in a few hours to see the house keepers over (And Possible queen, but unlikely this soon). If the queen is over that soon (Unlikely) then you can slide the bar to put the queen excluder on the hole. This will make sure the queen will not get back in the tree If the box is too full you will need to take some out on the frame you brought leaving the queen to stay. You will need to replace the brood frame with another. You will also note the date and wait 22 days to insure all eggs and larvae has hatched in the tree. Then you can slide the bar all the way in and close all contact to the tree leaving a route for any field bees to still come out the screen tunnel , but can only return to the box.
    What forces the bees over is that when you get your first house keepers over, Check for queen, but not likely so quick that she will be there, you then slide bar all the way in causing the bees in the box not to be able to go back and forth, Only the field bees will leave out but can only come back in the box in one day you will have more than you need if you just want a starter amount. They are loaded with their honey, pollen etc. and will have to build and pack inside of your box. Three days latter you will have a queen cell and worked cone from the tree bees. Since you will be having to removes bees every so often anyway because of the migrations as this continues, then I take the bees on the brood frame out and replace it with a new brood frame. This time I want all stages of brood and specifically those capped and ready to hatch that day or two away. I still want eggs as well. I leave the tree open for all the bees to re adjust for what they have gone through. Some will go back into the tree, but now there is work already out there "done by them". The queen likes to lay eggs in "fresh cleaned" cells. That is why the capped bees are needed to be there and hatching out. This could be happening within 4 days all together, and this is when she is to come over. Wait about two days and if she is not over close off the tree again and it will get worked again just like the first time. When all the field bees can not take their supply back into the tree they will again treat this as their new hive, will again attempt a queen cell etc. Wait three days(This cause the bees in the tree to suffer some) and you will have an over crowded box, Open it up to the tree again, there will be much more work now done in your box. This is where the queen is likely to come over and even have an extended stay laying eggs. I have not had to go the second round on this so far, she has laid eggs on the first cycle. I hope I explained this good enough. In fact I may add this explanation on ebay auction. Thanks Joseph Rorie.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Hogan trap out sequence

    josephus1.. Thanks for the info. Sounds promising, and I understand parts of it, but, honestly, not all yet. My questions would be:

    Have you attempted to lure the queen over where the entrance to a building/tank is at one point, and the brood nest is several feet away from where the entrance/exit is. ( and for whatever reason you cannot make another entrance, or just don't know where the brood nest is). My experience, which uses uncapped brood to lure the queen, same as yours, is that, she will not travel that far. In this case the bees often start queen cells in the trap from the brood you gave them, or, they use the trap as a storage chamber for excess honey.

    I also believe the available room in the brood nest, in the feral colony, will play a major role in whether the queen will come into the trap. If she has ample or surplus cells available in the feral brood nest, the only reason she has for coming into the trap is the smell of foreign eggs. Late in the season she is not looking for more cells, and may be content to stay in the tree, house, tank, etc. My experience indicates that a late season trap out is not as successful in getting the queen to come over as early season/major buildup for honey flow, trapots are.

    My experience has also indicated that if the queen does not come over, the bees in the trap may start to build queen cells in the trap from the unsealed brood you gave them. This is due to eggs/capped brood being in the trap, but, no queen is present.

    I have also experienced the nursebees coming over to tend the frame of brood you gave them, then returning to the feral source and abandoning the trap. This necessitated the use of the funnel to prevent them from returning to the tree, house, etc. I attributed this to the bees having adequate room in the feral chamber and not needing/wanting to establish another chamber.

    I especially like the part about the queen excluder keeping the queen in the trap without having to open the trap, or, her coming through the funnel. Someone contacted Kelly Bee Company about a year or so ago and had devised a way to slide the queen excluder into the tunnel without having to open the trap. I looked at it and said yes, it would certainly work. I don't know what they have done or are going to do about it.

    As I have said before, I did not develop the procedure I have used for years to get the queen, but rather to take starts and leave the feral colony healthy, year after year. Years ago, farmers would let me trap a couple of starts, but, did not want the bees killed. So i took a couple of starts, gave the farmer a little honey, we both had bees, and everyone was happy.

    Thanks for the info. Lots of good info here.

    cchoganjr

    Lots of good info.

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