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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Arlee MT USA
    Posts
    548

    Default Re: DWV.....need advice please.

    LOL.

    Me and some guys were just talking about Clinton last night. A brilliant communicator, and some great achievements during his Presidency, no doubt he thought he would be remembered as one of the good Presidents.

    Then, in a fleeting moment, too much blood (or something) to the head, screws up, and THAT phrase is how he is remembered.
    Umm....wrong thread?

    Anyway...hmmm. Not sure what I should do, if anything. I want to make some splits anyway...The hive still has a lot of bees, less than my others but more than it went into the winter with.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,447

    Default Re: DWV.....need advice please.

    Maybe. Although the on topic question I did ask you went unanswered.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Arlee MT USA
    Posts
    548

    Default Re: DWV.....need advice please.

    Maybe.
    Well, I have no idea how Clinton came into this thread so I assume this was a reply to some other thread that you accidentally posted here. I really don't care if you talk about Clinton, I just don't see the connection to anything that was said in this thread. Maybe it just went over my head?

    WLC
    Re: DWV.....need advice please.

    Oldtimer:

    If you were addressing me...

    In my opinion, treatment free beekeepers need some kind of a litmus test.

    I think that producing a split that survives a mite/DWV outbreak is classic resistance selection in the presence of a easily visible 'challenge'.

    So, the resulting colony won't be as 'weak'.
    You mean this question? If you were directing that question at me then I can't answer, it wasn't my idea but it makes as much sense as anything.

    Anyway, I've run out of time to do anything before I leave so I'm taking Bush's advice and waiting until I get back to make up my mind.

    If I where to order new queens does anybody have recommendations? Is M. Bush going to sell queens this year?

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,447

    Default Re: DWV.....need advice please.

    OK apologies Aerindel, the Clinton thing was a response to the cigar quote, I thought every American knew what that was about. If you didn't know that, would have seemed pretty strange, yes.

    Google can fill it in for you, type in Clinton cigar.

    And the question I asked was to you, as you were the one considering breeding from the weak hive, or at least the hive showing DWV. WLC came up with a good response, however I was interested in your own rationale, in view of your own philosophy and ideas expressed in your posts since you joined Beesource.

    But hey, answering isn't compulsory, no big deal.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 06-13-2013 at 03:57 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,047

    Default Re: DWV.....need advice please.

    Oldtimer:

    I did understand the 'Lewinsky' reference.
    However, I was referring to winning a cigar at a carnival game.

    There's more than one school of thought in treatment free circles in how to obtain resistant bees.

    One is 'live and let die'. Another is feral trapouts. An emerging view is splitting weaker colonies. And of course, you can buy them.

    I don't have enough hives for the first. I can't get to any swarms in the city. So, I'm left with the third and fourth options.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Citrus County, Florida, United States
    Posts
    241

    Default Re: DWV.....need advice please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    And the question I asked was to you, as you were the one considering breeding from the weak hive, or at least the hive showing DWV. WLC came up with a good response, however I was interested in your own rationale, in view of your own philosophy and ideas expressed in your posts since you joined Beesource.

    But hey, answering isn't compulsory, no big deal.
    The choke hold has been applied. Fight through or tap-out?

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,447

    Default Re: DWV.....need advice please.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    An emerging view is splitting weaker colonies.
    My view on that would be fine, if they are requeened. But walkaway splits? Breeding from the weak would be a bad thing, wouldn't it?

    Reading Aerindel, his main focus is don't treat, don't support the weak, don't breed from the weak. He believes treating makes weak bees.

    But actually, treating does not make weak bees. Breeding from weak bees makes weak bees. Whether the choice of breeder colony has anything to do with treatment is a management decision.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Arlee MT USA
    Posts
    548

    Default Re: DWV.....need advice please.

    He believes treating makes weak bees.
    No....I think it makes strong mites. There's a big difference. (Although it wouldn't surprise me if insecticides in the hive make those bees sick but that is totally different than genetic 'weakness'

    Treating also lets weak bees survive and breed when they otherwise wouldn't but again, that is different than 'making' them weak.

    This is all basic biology and shouldn't be in dispute. Its not specific to bees or insects, it applies to all life on earth and would be just as true if I was talking about rats and fleas or humans and bacteria.


    My view on that would be fine, if they are requeened. But walkaway splits? Breeding from the weak would be a bad thing, wouldn't it?
    I was actually wondering the same thing but you asked the question first and I thought the answer was a good one.

    The reason I was considering it is that it was something I could actually hope to get done before I go away for three weeks.

    As I said in my first post, I would rather requeen from my best hive but I don't have time to start that process until I get back in three weeks.

    The other factor of course is that breeding from a weak hive is not guaranteed to make all weak queens (no more than breeding from a strong hive will make all strong ones) Since the new bees genetics will be a mix the old queen, the drones she mated with, and then the drones the new queen mates with there should be a range of genes to work with.

    I like WLC's plan because it doesn't cost me anything. I split up a hive that is failing anyway and get to run a challenge test for resistance and I don't have to steal eggs from my best hives and slow them down. At worst I am right back where I started, at best I have some number of new stronger hives.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,447

    Default Re: DWV.....need advice please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    He believes treating makes weak bees.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
    No....I think it makes strong mites.
    OK, if you say so. However my statement was based on your past posts, where you have stated that treating for parasites will make a weaker host.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
    treatments will always make more resistant parasites and weaker hosts. Its been devastating to our own species, no reason to think it will work better with bees.
    However thanks for explaining your current thinking, whether I agree or not, I was just interested in the rationale for what you wanted to do.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

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