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  1. #161
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Oshawa, Ontario
    Posts
    200

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Initially, FGMO was the way to go, best thing since rolled condoms; now OA is the way to go.
    I appreciate that Glock had mites after fogging with straight FGMO, so he went to oxalic acid, to make sure he didn't lose his bees.
    My only issue is that he never tried any way but his way.
    It seems to be all or nothing, with no middle ground.
    Respectfully, his results are only his own.

    Dr Rodrigues used FGMO in conjunction with cotton cords loaded with grease, and reported good results.
    I'm using grease patties and FGMO with wintergreen.
    I don't think there is only one right answer, it's whatever works for you.

  2. #162
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Belpre,Ohio, USA
    Posts
    1,337

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gord View Post
    My only issue is that he never tried any way but his way.
    It seems to be all or nothing, with no middle ground.
    Respectfully, his results are only his own.
    Gord, You seem to be bit rough of Glock, he was only doing what he felt he had to do in order for his bees to survive, it is late in the season and he had to make a choice of what to treat his bees with. Oxalic acid was not "his way", it was "a way" of treatment that he chose and from what I can see he made a wise choice. His results are his own and so was mine, it might be a good idea for you to start a thread and treat your hives with FMGO and grease, then you can report on your findings as Glock has. I am not trying to be cynical here, just a suggestion.
    Bill...in Southeast Ohio Zone 6A

  3. #163
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Kingsland, Ga
    Posts
    44

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    I enjoy how Glock did his troubleshooting. Stick with it and don't introduce any variables into the equation...it screws up the results! Changing formula was sort of an emergency action because his experiment wasn't producing favorable results....but he hung in there as long as possible to get data that was consistent.

    OA might work by itself but I'd like to see some data on it. I was almost going to go to grease patties only, then try adding wintergreen or spearmint, but I found others who are already doing the work so I thought I'd wait for their results.

    I don't treat unless forced to. I've even let colonies die from being a sickly and weak bunch but I don't like just walking away from a hive without making some attempt. Having a weak and struggling hive (like I have now) makes for a good test bed. If I'm going to let the hive die anyway, I might as well try a treatment method and make an experiment out of it to see if I can add to the already bevy of good information out there about the various pests plaguing us.

    It's been said by so many people, Glock and Gord alike, that we all already know that someone's successful treatment may not work for anyone else. Or someone's failure might be a miracle cure for someone else. But none of us will know unless we share....like we're doing now. Of course everyone's results are their own. Whose else would they be? You guys are all great.....thanks for all your input and help. I think I got more out of this than the OP!

    Ken

  4. #164
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SNOW SHOE PA USA
    Posts
    1,284

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gord View Post
    Initially, FGMO was the way to go, best thing since rolled condoms
    So I guess your a big condom fan?!
    On a normal note I fogged with straight FGMO only to see if it worked and to let BS know my findings I now know . I didn't want to add any thing else so we could see if FGMO works it does not.
    Does it work with essential oils no Idea but straight up no way.
    I did brood breaks and fogged with straight FGMO weekly and it failed and this was not my way I didn't invent it I just gave it a shoot and it failed now we all know FGMO does not work alone will it work as a carrier of something that might kill the VARROA I say yes but I had a back up plan and that was OAV and I think it the best thing since color tv. Till I can go treatment free OAV is looking good but hey this is my first year trying in but i know i would of had some pretty bad PMS if i did not make a move and i'm glad i did. I well have bees in 2014 and more then 2013 .
    I am not sure what i'm going to do come next spring i may just watch the hives close and do alcohol washes in JULY and treat as needed .
    My goal is all about me and my bees i want healthy bees and till you can keep your VARROA at a controllable levels you will fail . I one day hope to have treatment free bees but i'm only 4 years in to this and one day would like to sell queens /nucs/ deeps/ frames of brood/and honey/ I sold honey this year and have 13 nucs going in to fall and plan on selling 10 if they make through winter so i'm on my way to fulfilling my beekeeping goals. If i can help i always will but it is all about me and my bee's.
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 32 hives==== T{OAV}

  5. #165
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Columbia, Missouri, usa
    Posts
    211

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    I had the same results as Glock.
    I fogged every week through the summer for 10 weeks with FGMO plus 15 drops of spearmint. Then at Sept 1,2013 I had too many mites on the stickyboards.
    Since then, I have used OAV - three times.
    My bees do look good ; however I got very little honey this year. Lack of rain? Hot?
    Charlie

  6. #166
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
    Posts
    924

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    GLOCK - How are the OA treatments going and how are your recent mite drops?

    I treated with OA for the first time last weekend. I am seeing total mite drops in the low-100's after 5 days. I will treat again this weekend, assuming the weather is above 50F.
    --shinbone
    (3rd year, 12 hives, Zone 5b, 5400 ft, 15.8" annual rainfall)

  7. #167
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SNOW SHOE PA USA
    Posts
    1,284

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Quote Originally Posted by shinbone View Post
    GLOCK - How are the OA treatments going and how are your recent mite drops?

    I treated with OA for the first time last weekend. I am seeing total mite drops in the low-100's after 5 days. I will treat again this weekend, assuming the weather is above 50F.
    I treated yesterday and only a few mites had dropped as of today I like to look on the third day seems to be the most that a hive will drop after OAV at least for me.
    Last time I treated my hives dropped a lot that was like two weeks ago I think all brood is hatched out for the year now after this treatment I am done till next year.
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 32 hives==== T{OAV}

  8. #168
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Campbell River, BC, CA
    Posts
    534

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    This is an interesting thread, and, in some ways it emphasizes something we learned in our first year with hives. A lot of the ongoing summer decisions, were based on a sticky board count, natural mite drop.

    During our first year, we put stickies in and did counts in late August. The two hives beside the house, one of them had a count of zero, the other a count of 1, after 24 hours. We debated treating those hives, counts were VERY low. But, we decided to go ahead, and put thymol strips in, waited 24 hours, then did another sticky board count. When I pulled the first sticky board, I started counting, lost track somewhere north of a thousand.

    My conclusion. Low count on the sticky board = healthy vigorous mites that dont fall. High count on the sticky board means mites are falling. Neither of these conditions means low mite count in the hive. The sticky board count tells us nothing about the health of the bees, and a lot about the health of your mite population.

    I think the experience GLOCK had counting mites on sticky boards all summer, after fogging with FGMO, kind of emphasizes the same result. Low counts on the sticky boards means mites are not falling. His experience later in the summer confirms, they were there. Same conclusion, low count on the sticky board does NOT mean lack of mites, it means, lack of unhealthy mites, which essentially infers a good healthy mite population, exactly what we DONT want.

    Something else I have noticed over time, lots of folks rely on the counts from sticky boards to determine wether or not to treat. Cant remember how many times folks have told me about a hive with a low mite count in late august, confirmed by sticky board count, only to have the hive die in the winter.

    My final conclusion from a lot of this, most folks are interpreting a sticky board count in error. Low count on the sticky board is being inferred as a low mite count in the hive, when in fact, it's telling us the mites are healthy and strong, not falling onto the sticky board. It's not telling us anything about how many mites are actually in that hive.

  9. #169
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Turnbow Hollow, Tennessee
    Posts
    176

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    It has been awhile since I have read through this thread. I wanted to post my observations with the treatment I am currently using. I have been gradually titrating the amount of Thyme essential oil that I add to the FGMO. Currently I am fogging my hives with FGMO mixed with 60 drops of Thyme essential oil. I mix the 60 drops of Thyme essential oil in a 16 oz. bottle of FGMO.

    When I fog my hives, I apply the fog in alternating streams of fog in the entrance and the top ventilating super until I get the hive to draw the FGMO fog in through the top ventilating super and I get a steady stream of FGMO fog out of the hive entrance on the bottom board.

    I have sat and observed the behavior of the bees as they recover and ventilate the hive. Many come to the bottom board entrance and they begin to groom each other.

    My thoughts are that the FGMO fog micro droplets act in a number of ways. I suspect the micro droplets attach to the hairs on the bees and trigger grooming, I believe they have some effect on the Varro mite's ability to respirate through it exoskeleton and the Thyme oil acts as an irritant to the varroa mites. I think the Thyme essential oil/FGMO fog mix may have a similar effect on traechital mites as well.

    Api Life Var is essentially Thymol or crystalized/concentrated Thyme and is an approved treatment for varroa and tracheal mites. I think the vaporized Thyme oil may have a similar action to the Api Life Var.

    Whatever factors are involved, I can observe the nearly immediate improvement in activity in each hive once the bees are done groom each other and hives that were very low activity became MUCH more active in the following days.

    I have found that treatments such as Hopguard although very effective, are extremely labor intensive and the repeated disassembling of the hive I feel causes more harm than the Hopguard does good. Other treatments are temperature restricted.

    As has already been posted, your results may differ. The bottom line is that this seems to be working well for me and I can treat throughout the season.

  10. #170
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
    Posts
    924

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Live Oak - Glad to hear you are happy with the FGMO/thymol fogging treatments. Do you have before and after mite counts to share?
    --shinbone
    (3rd year, 12 hives, Zone 5b, 5400 ft, 15.8" annual rainfall)

  11. #171
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Algoma dr. Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    1,085

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Glocks results are far from just his own! I and my son have used patent thymol treatments as well as made our own from crystals. We have used formic acid patent strips and bulk acid on meat pads, and I have dosed them daily with metered amounts. I have use hopguard strips. They all work and some have temperature limitations and varying lengths of treatment needed.

    What I prefer is Oxalic Acid vaporization. It is the most flexible temperature wise and the hive does not have to be opened to do it. It is very effective and the cheapest of any treatment. I have seen zero mortality. If I had a hive with extremely high mite counts and lots of brood I would consider formic acid treatment as it is the only one that appears to have any effect on mites under cappings.

    Both formic and oxalic acids are normal components of honey (though not in treatment level quantities) and any increase in levels on comb or contents is quickly dissipated. They do not bioaccumulate and there is reportedly no mechanism for mites to become resistant to their effectiveness.

    I had the bee inspectors around a couple of weeks ago and they were impressed with the condition of the bees and had to be shown my homemade evaporator. They found no mites in pulled drone brood. Last treatment was in April. I have had no winter losses the last two years with 3 and 8 hives respectively.

    Read about all the various options and make sure you also do a negative search about problems with any of the options. It is all to easy to do a confirmation search for what you already believe to be the one and only path.

  12. #172
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
    Posts
    924

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    re Crofter's comments:

    I, too, am a fan of oxalic acid. Easy to use and very effective. I have seen zero negative effect on the bees.

    I have also used Apiguard, which is a thymol based treatment. It is also very effective, but it did cause some visible agitation in the bees, but otherwise I saw no negative effects.

    Because thymol does have activity against mites, I was wondering if fogging with FGMO and thymol would have activity against mites, which is why I was wondering whether Live Oak had any before-and-after mite measurements.

    Oxalic acid is so effective and easy, though, I don't see any benefit to fogging with a mixture of FGMO and thymol.
    Last edited by shinbone; 07-28-2014 at 03:40 PM.
    --shinbone
    (3rd year, 12 hives, Zone 5b, 5400 ft, 15.8" annual rainfall)

  13. #173
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Laurel Hill, Fl
    Posts
    471

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Y
    Quote Originally Posted by Live Oak View Post
    It has been awhile since I have read through this thread. I wanted to post my observations with the treatment I am currently using. I have been gradually titrating the amount of Thyme essential oil that I add to the FGMO. Currently I am fogging my hives with FGMO mixed with 60 drops of Thyme essential oil. I mix the 60 drops of Thyme essential oil in a 16 oz. bottle of FGMO.

    When I fog my hives, I apply the fog in alternating streams of fog in the entrance and the top ventilating super until I get the hive to draw the FGMO fog in through the top ventilating super and I get a steady stream of FGMO fog out of the hive entrance on the bottom board.

    I have sat and observed the behavior of the bees as they recover and ventilate the hive. Many come to the bottom board entrance and they begin to groom each other.

    My thoughts are that the FGMO fog micro droplets act in a number of ways. I suspect the micro droplets attach to the hairs on the bees and trigger grooming, I believe they have some effect on the Varro mite's ability to respirate through it exoskeleton and the Thyme oil acts as an irritant to the varroa mites. I think the Thyme essential oil/FGMO fog mix may have a similar effect on traechital mites as well.

    Api Life Var is essentially Thymol or crystalized/concentrated Thyme and is an approved treatment for varroa and tracheal mites. I think the vaporized Thyme oil may have a similar action to the Api Life Var.

    Whatever factors are involved, I can observe the nearly immediate improvement in activity in each hive once the bees are done groom each other and hives that were very low activity became MUCH more active in the following days.

    I have found that treatments such as Hopguard although very effective, are extremely labor intensive and the repeated disassembling of the hive I feel causes more harm than the Hopguard does good. Other treatments are temperature restricted.

    As has already been posted, your results may differ. The bottom line is that this seems to be working well for me and I can treat throughout the season.
    Hi Live oak,
    You need to do some before and after mite counts and keep running totals on either each hive or a given hive. I thought my FGMO treatments were working, but doing weekly mite counts proved to me that my mite level was continuing to climb. I was NOT using oils and would love to see your results. That said, I moved to OAV. Weekly treatments and counts proved to me that the mite count fell from several thousand (treating makes them drop like crazy) to a about a hundred in 4 weekly treatments. I eventually went to 3 treatments in the dearth after I remove my supers and 5 treatments in the cool fall months going into winter. I don't think the extra treatments are needed much, but it's Nov and pretty cool days so I don't mind giving them the extra treatments.
    Robbin NW Florida(8A) / 14 hives / 2 nd Year / 4 TF - 10T {OAV}

  14. #174
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SNOW SHOE PA USA
    Posts
    1,284

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    I used OAV at the end of last year and I must say it works great.
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...rroa-test-pics
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 32 hives==== T{OAV}

  15. #175
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Sulphur Springs TX
    Posts
    17

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Greetings All
    I kept bees 20 or 30 years ago when I never heard of mites, or OAVs. I reentered bee keeping this year, and have truly enjoyed this thread, because disease of any kind (mite or otherwise) is important to all of us, so I have some questions about the OAV to make sure I understand:
    1. When using OAV you don't have to use another type of mite control? No sugar dusting, no strips, etc?
    2. You just use 1 gram per deep 3 to 4 times in the fall; here in Texas probably October?
    3. The reason for the 3 or 4 time is to catch all of the brood that is emerging in a 21 day cycle since it doesn't work on capped brood? Correct?
    4. Could you use a 14 ga extension cord hooked up to the truck battery from 25 or 50 foot?
    5. From the time the acid starts to vaporize, to 3 minutes in the hive, to 1 minute cool down before removing from the hive, your looking at 4 mins per hive approximately?
    6. Does any of these vaporizers have a built in time, or auto shut off, and if so which one?
    7. Is there a model most of you seem to prefer, and can you give me some links?
    8. Apparently its not harmful to the bees in anyway, and can be used in a much wider temperature range than the mite strips?
    9. I'm assuming everyone, or most everyone in this thread has used strips, and have concluded this to be the safest and most economical?
    10. Do you have to do another 3 or 4 week treatment in the spring before the 1st honey flow, or is the fall sufficient?
    11. Do you test for mites prior to treating with OA, or is it pretty normal just to assume we have mites, and treat?
    12. Do you find the sugar shake, or the alcohol wash to be more accurate test?

    I appreciate everyones answers, and I apologize for so many, and I'll probably have more. Looking forward to hearing from each of you.

    Thanks guys.

  16. #176
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Massillon, Ohio
    Posts
    3,441

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Wow, that is a loaded post.

    For each question above I've seen entire threads devoted to discussion and debate. I hope you get some good feedback, but if not it might be because it's difficult to know where to begin. I don't want to discourage anyone from responding, but you can probably do some "Oxalic Acid" searches and find many threads with numerous opinions on each of your questions. Most will have no single conclusive answer due to regional variations and personal opinion.
    To everything there is a season....

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