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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
    Posts
    880

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Kewl. Thanks!
    --shinbone
    (3rd year, 14 hives, Zone 5b, 5400 ft, 15.8" annual rainfall)

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Walker, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    923

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdevier View Post
    AR - no noticeable effect on me or the bees , during fogging or afterwards. I do not think that there will be any long term effects either. The FGMO is a highly purified oil - probably not nearly as bad for you as cooking an iron skillet of bacon on a hot stove.
    Charlie
    The possible side effects are the only reason I have not tried this. Again on Randy Oliver's site, he mentions a few very scary ones. Since my partner has COPD, I am nervous to try it. (I really DON'T want an oxygen mask of my very own!) Does anyone know of any studies on long-term effects on the human lungs? If I could clear up this one worry, I'd be fogging by next season!

    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SNOW SHOE PA USA
    Posts
    1,271

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Hills Farm View Post
    The possible side effects are the only reason I have not tried this. Again on Randy Oliver's site, he mentions a few very scary ones. Since my partner has COPD, I am nervous to try it. (I really DON'T want an oxygen mask of my very own!) Does anyone know of any studies on long-term effects on the human lungs? If I could clear up this one worry, I'd be fogging by next season!

    Rusty
    No side effects so far .
    With COPD guess your partner should worry .
    With healthy lungs I don't worry.
    The only thing with fogging I found wrong is my fogger already broke so time for a new one.
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 32 hives==== T{OAV}

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    166

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Not sure of the long term effects of breathing FGMO. I would think that short term exposure would do little damage. If I was concerned I would maintain an upwind orientation or get a mask with filter.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,384

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    If you lookup damage to lungs from oil vapors you'll find they are quite dangerous. You definitely do not want to breath them. I find standing upwind is pretty effective. You'll be able to see the direction from the smoke from the fogger.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Binghamton,New York ,us
    Posts
    65

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Here's a link to a newer study. I'm not great when it comes to reading these reports and picking them apart but they fogged every single week and did not eliminate the mites. If you guys at home are going every 2-3 weeks I think you are waisting your time.
    http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/Projec...641&y=2011&t=1

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SNOW SHOE PA USA
    Posts
    1,271

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Davis View Post
    Here's a link to a newer study. I'm not great when it comes to reading these reports and picking them apart but they fogged every single week and did not eliminate the mites. If you guys at home are going every 2-3 weeks I think you are waisting your time.
    http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/Projec...641&y=2011&t=1
    Did ya read this tread?

    I am fogging weekly with straight FGMO and it's about low mite counts not mite elimination I don't think that's possible and if it is it's not for long.
    It seems to be working for me so think what you like but at least read the thread
    I will do my own study.
    Heres the study he's talking about.
    http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/assocf...inalReport.pdf
    Old news.
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 32 hives==== T{OAV}

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Binghamton,New York ,us
    Posts
    65

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK View Post
    Did ya read this tread?

    I am fogging weekly with straight FGMO and it's about low mite counts not mite elimination I don't think that's possible and if it is it's not for long.
    It seems to be working for me so think what you like but at least read the thread
    I will do my own study.
    Heres the study he's talking about.
    http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/assocf...inalReport.pdf
    Old news.
    I've read the thread since you started it and I have been fogging 2 yrs straight, but I also vaporize with Oa in the fall. 15 yrs ago glock I was putting mineral oil on every frame of my brood chambers with a medicine dropper. I think mineral helps when done regularly, but I think I read a post by you saying next yr you won't fog as much and other people were talking about fogging every 2-3 weeks. The people who use it once in a while will be the ones who come back on next year and tell you to sell your fogger.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SNOW SHOE PA USA
    Posts
    1,271

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    That's cool BILL I just wondered see I have most of my hive on 4.9 cell now and was going to take like 5 hives {I have 3 bee yards} and not fog and see if the small cell alone can control the mite . M. BUSH swears by sm cell . I am just trying to make healthy bees and this has been my best year by far and I am sure fogging is helping.
    Happy beeing.
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 32 hives==== T{OAV}

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
    Posts
    880

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    The FMGO study by Heather Kyser cited in Post #86 concludes: "Experimental hives that were fogged had an overall lower mite count, produced more honey, over wintered better, and were generally more robust and stronger than control colonies that were stressed by a higher mite infestation."

    However, the data (which is presented in a very confusing manner, IMHO) appear to show little if any difference in mite counts between the control hives and the weekly fogged hives for the 1st year, a slight difference the 2nd year, and a roughly 30%-60% (depending on which month you look at) end-of-season difference the 3rd year (if I am reading the data correctly). In other words, it took 3 years of weekly fogging to achieve some improvement in mite counts, so there is indeed some long term benefit to fogging, but it requires weekly applications and a few years to see those benefits, according to the author. Good news that FMGO has a favorable affect, but it takes a lot of time and effort to see that benefit, and, at least at the 3-year mark, the reduction in mites isn't gonna knock your socks off. At least in this one study.

    I should add that I have no doubt that those who fog with FMGO and say they achieve good results, do indeed achieve good results. Ms. Kyser's study is just one person's results in one area with one person's bees.
    Last edited by shinbone; 08-14-2013 at 08:49 AM.
    --shinbone
    (3rd year, 14 hives, Zone 5b, 5400 ft, 15.8" annual rainfall)

  11. #91
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Laurel Hill, Fl
    Posts
    470

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    I don’t think you can take away from the study that there is a long term effect. I Don’t believe that if fogging works, that the effect would be cumulative. IE, a reduction this year would result in a reduction next year. They didn’t fog over the winter so you are basically starting from scratch every year. Also, the heavier the infestation, the larger the effect. That just stands to reason. All the bees in a hive don’t have mites, nor do all the bees in a hive get oil on them during each treatment. So the higher the infestation rate, the greater number of bees with mites getting oiled, the greater the effect. Which could be why 08, with it’s very low numbers showed no improvement.

    Also, the study was in New York. With much longer periods that you can’t fog. I live in Florida. Probably have much higher infestation rates, and a much longer warm season in which I can fog.

    Fogging doesn’t hurt (as long as you don’t blow up a hive like Mr. Bush did), it’s not expensive and its fast/easy…..
    I don’t count mites. I just fog them… So I can’t tell you if it really works or not, but I’ve read about enough other people fogging and counting to believe that it works. And you don’t have to count mites to know you’ve got them.

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
    Posts
    880

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Robbin - I understand your reasoning why you would see a bigger affect from fogging with a larger mite infestation.

    Could you also explain your statement: "I Don’t believe that if fogging works, that the effect would be cumulative. IE, a reduction this year would result in a reduction next year. They didn’t fog over the winter so you are basically starting from scratch every year."

    It seems to me that if a hive goes into winter with fewer mites, then it would emerge in spring with fewer mites than otherwise even without a winter treatment, and if a moderately effective mite treatment protocol was then followed, the hive would then also have fewer mites at the end of the season. This would only hold true for a moderately effective treatment protocol: An ineffective protocol would not be cumulative because it would have no impact on mites; and a highly effective treatment protocol would not be cumulative because it would reduce the mite population to near zero with each treatment. (Just me thinking out loud.)
    Last edited by shinbone; 08-14-2013 at 10:28 AM.
    --shinbone
    (3rd year, 14 hives, Zone 5b, 5400 ft, 15.8" annual rainfall)

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SNOW SHOE PA USA
    Posts
    1,271

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Well last year at this time I had hives crumbling to PMS this is a bee at the start of this year

    The hive I took this bee pic from was weak in the spring and took all spring and part of summer to get up and running but has been requeened
    and is strong making bees for winter.
    And I had bees that looked like that all over the ground last year not a one this year just healthy bees.
    I have not seen a bee like this since may all hives are doing well and are not showing any PMS at all so I am sure fogging is helping giving my bees a chance to get strong and maybe one day be able to deal with varroa on there own till then I will help
    My goal is to have bees that can live with the varroa and not try to eliminate the mite. I want varroa resistance not elimination. I had read the study last year and and every thing I could on fogging and read every thing Dr. Rodriguez’s posted on BS plus his studies that one of the reasons I am giving fogging a try plus the fat beeman and ever person that fogs and post on BS .
    I will see when spring comes but I bet I have some nice hive in the spring. Fogging is helping for sure.
    Last edited by GLOCK; 08-14-2013 at 02:32 PM.
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 32 hives==== T{OAV}

  14. #94
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Laurel Hill, Fl
    Posts
    470

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Quote Originally Posted by shinbone View Post
    Robbin - I understand your reasoning why you would see a bigger affect from fogging with a larger mite infestation.

    Could you also explain your statement: "I Donít believe that if fogging works, that the effect would be cumulative. IE, a reduction this year would result in a reduction next year. They didnít fog over the winter so you are basically starting from scratch every year."

    It seems to me that if a hive goes into winter with fewer mites, then it would emerge in spring with fewer mites than otherwise even without a winter treatment, and if a moderately effective mite treatment protocol was then followed, the hive would then also have fewer mites at the end of the season. This would only hold true for a moderately effective treatment protocol: An ineffective protocol would not be cumulative because it would have no impact on mites; and a highly effective treatment protocol would not be cumulative because it would reduce the mite population to near zero with each treatment. (Just me thinking out loud.)
    Hi shinbone, I don't think mite populations are static enough to see moderate gains from last year carried into this year and forward. Otherwise we could either eradicate mites completely or drive them down to the lowest level that fogging could keep them at. You get re-infestation from mites outside your hives. So I donít think the mite count will continue to decline over time. You are probably correct in that it would have been worse, but it would be difficult to prove if the mite count actually increases as it did in 2010 in that study. What you could prove was that mite counts were lower in the fogged hives, but the actually mite count was not lower year over year. So the study didnít show a cumulative decrease. I think the mite population would have to be fairly static to see cumulative reductions in mite counts.

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Lakeland, Florida
    Posts
    567

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Glock....very intresting thread. gives me something to think about on treatment. Question...have you seen a reduction in other pests (SBH-wax moths) in your hives as well???

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SNOW SHOE PA USA
    Posts
    1,271

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Santa Caras View Post
    Glock....very intresting thread. gives me something to think about on treatment. Question...have you seen a reduction in other pests (SBH-wax moths) in your hives as well???
    I have only one pest I have as far as I know is varroa.
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 32 hives==== T{OAV}

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SNOW SHOE PA USA
    Posts
    1,271

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Well did alcohol washes on 6 of my hives and 4 had high mite counts . I used a half a cup of bees and it went as followed.
    Hive 1 the first hive I did a brood break this year it requeened and been laying great lots of eggs and brood doing well 9 mite count.
    Hive 2 second hive did a brood break to it this past spring mite count 6
    Hive 3 same as hive 2 mite count 5
    Hive 4 supersedure in spring took queen out be for they killed her it requeend and layed for 2 weeks and supersedure again so it had 2 brood breaks and has low mite counts 4 total
    Hive 5 has lots of bees in it had the highest count 13 but its healthy and and lots of brood and eggs.
    And I did a single nuc 2 mite count.
    The reason I did alcohol washes was with in a week I went from around 5 mites on the sticky boards in a 24 hour drop now there at any where from 10 to 20 happened real fast .
    And all my darn nucs are robbed out but have queens and are laying funny how fast things change in the bee yards .
    What do you all think I should do i'm thinking oxalic acid.
    Like i said all hives are healthy and no virus no DWV I just don't understand.
    Maybe fogging every 5 days maybe or fogging with essential oil or just let them go and see what happens.
    Thank you.
    I have to make a move soon I am guessing
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 32 hives==== T{OAV}

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Columbia, Missouri, usa
    Posts
    211

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Glock,
    Here are my 24 hour results of 6 hives; Total mites on a sticky board

    Hive Jul 25 Aug 9
    1 ---- 3 ---- 1 small hive
    3 ---- 0 ---- 6 medium hive
    6 ---- 0 ---- 5 medium hive
    8 ---- 5 ---- 15 medium hive
    15 --- 50 ---- 2 small hive
    18 --- 0 ---- 17 big hive

    I installed my sticky board 48 hours after I fogged ; therefore my counts may be lower than yours. I used a piece of waxed freezer paper 8 1/2 inches by 11 inches with petroleum jelly on it.
    I am using 16 oz. FGMO with 15 drops of spearmint oil.

    I cannot explain why the one high count of 50 mites. This hive was my largest last summer and crashed this summer.
    Charlie
    13 hives zone 5

  19. #99
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    967

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Glock,
    My yards are about 60 miles north of you.
    We didn't get a dearth this year, just a severs slowdown of nectar flow, with goldenrod just starting to bloom this last week.

    Btw nectar slowdown and the shortage of flying days due to thunderstorms and rain, I've noticed a lot fewer drone cells in the brood nest.

    If you've seen similar, perhaps the spike in mite drop has to due with phoretic mites finding a shortage of drone cells and a shortage of host cells resulting in a greater proportion of mites being out of cells searching for host cells and subject to out-of-cell mortality hazards (bee bites, for example).

    I think it not unlikely that what you are seeing could be the result of bees going after mites and a shortage of larger host cells, particularly if you have a high proportion of sealed brood in the brood nest (I've noticed more sealed brood in proportion to open here last inspection as well as the reduction in drone brood).

    In other words, what you are seeing perhaps isn't an increase in mite population, but an increase in mite deaths b/c of bees doing what they have been doing combined with more mites seeking new cells as drone brood population dropped, if you have experienced such a drop there, as I have here.

  20. #100
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Baden Wurtemburg Germany
    Posts
    162

    Default Re: Started fogging today.

    Bad news about the mites, the silver lining in that is you know about it in time to do something. Why not try the addition of Thymol in the FGMO for fogging and use the cords.

    Good luck with the mites and please keep this thread going.

    Stephen

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