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  1. #61
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    It would be wonderful if one could say all beekeepers care deeply about their bees and would do anything to keep them healthy.

    People keep bees for different reasons and have vastly different amounts of time to spend with their bees. I have great respect for the people who are thinking about getting into beekeeping and then conclude that they don't have the time to do right by the bees.

    As I have said before location is huge - both as a determinant of any local bee population and the environment that the bees live in.

    In my area, truly local bees are hard to find as numerous colonies (I'm guessing between 35-40,000 into my County) are imported for pollination each spring. Those imported bees overwhelm the DCAs, potentially diluting any attempts at breeding I might make. [There is a drop of 100+ hives down the road about 4 miles from my home.]

    In other areas local bee populations interbreed with Africanized bees. Are those resultant bees better able to coexist with mites? Ah, my answer would be yes. Are those bees unmanageable? I say "No." do the TF Bees I'm keeping now have some African lineage? It wouldn't surprise me.

    Understanding what is going on in the hive is crucial. Depending on your available time to learn about bees, you could easily blame a hive lost in winter to being stuck where there were no stores when a cold snap hit. But if you've got time and knowledge you start asking more questions: Why was the cluster so small that it got stuck in an area where there were no stores? The search for answers is ongoing, someone will always be there to say "you didn't take this into account."

    HITS is recognizing that mites are a terrible problem for bees and pretty much unless you do something about them (that is consistent with your philosophy) your bees will probably die. It is not saying that mites are the end of the learning curve. Obviously there are many factors that contribute to an area being either a good or a challenging place to keep bees. It is simply saying that mites can't be ignored.

    I'm delighted that there are beekeepers like Kirk Webster who go about their business keeping bees and continually learning about them. I don't have unlimited time to devote to my bees - they are a hobby for me and I have other interests. The prudent course for me is to 1) keep an open mind and 2) to somehow absorb some of the vast information on bees and beekeeping that is coming out.

    In the end all I hope to do is keep my bees as healthy as I am able to, using the resources at my disposal including whatever human intellect I may possess.
    Master Beekeeper (EAS) and Master Gardener (U Maine CE) www.beeberrywoods.com

  2. #62

    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    I debate may be old, tired, and useless to you but I've never done it yet. I didn't get my turn!
    Trust me on this…you will get countless opportunities. It pops up regularly. Lots of folks go away mad. Nobody changes their mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    In your initial post you implied that people who do the "live and let die" method of mite control are wrong.
    I certainly didn’t intend any such implication. I actually believe there is some merit in the method. I don’t think it should be the universal approach….and I would strongly suggest that folks who employ it make objective measurements to assess their results (no HITS). I always admired Dann Purvis who stepped on his bees hard and bred from the survivors.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  3. #63
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    It's impossible really to know how long bees are actually living in a tree. We already know for a fact that swarms will readily take up residence on abandoned comb; so how do you discern whether those bees you see in the tree year after year are the same bees, or whether the colony dies every now and then and the hive is co-opted by a swarm from elsewhere?
    You can't with all of them, but with some of them you can. I am getting ready to do a trapout, that a good friend of mine has been watching for 10 yrs, they are in a tree 10 ft from his deck and he watches them everyday. I asked him the very question is it possible that new swarms have moved in each yr his reply was they start moving on warm days before the snow melts and don't stop said they swarm once or sometimes twice a yr and the only reason he wants them out of the tree now is he's afraid the tree is going to come down on his house and doesn't want the bees harmed.

  4. #64

    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Dewey View Post
    I'm delighted that there are beekeepers like Kirk Webster who go about their business keeping bees and continually learning about them.
    A perfect example. Treatment free...but I'd wager that he wouldn't claim that varroa aren't a problem.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  5. #65
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. C View Post
    Ya and while were at it we should stop taking antibiotics and medications because we are breeding weaker and weaker humans... .
    When I was a kid, my parents didn't have insurance, therefor we NEVER went to the Dr. I can't remember the last time I took antibiotics, now a days, we see the same thing we are talking about in humans when Dr's prescribe antibiotics for no real reason and people don't take them long enough to kill all the bacteria only leaving the resistant bacteria to survive. That is how things like MRSA came about. Same thing happens in livestock, certain wormers on the market will do absoutly nothing for goats because for decades people wormed them by the season, not the need. If we treat a hive for ANYTHING and don't kill EVERYTHING the pests that survive because they are more resistant are the only ones left to breed

  6. #66
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    That's generally true; but I don't think it applies in the case of things like IPM. Take drone comb, just for one possible instance. Mites lay most (but not all of course) of their own eggs in the fat juicy drone larvae; they're capped, and you remove them. and freeze the frames, thereby killing the drone brood and mites. Since 0 of the mites on the frames survive the process, and none of the mites that weren't on the frames were exposed to any part of the process, there's no way for mites to resist that kind of thing the way a bacterial strain can develop a resistance to an antibiotic through sublethal contact.

    For another thing though, I completely disagree with medication as a matter of course. I've recently seen a video series (you can tell it came from some old VHS tapes) from some university's beekeeping program, that shows someone demonstrating installing a package, and immediately sifting a spoonful of terramycin all over the backs of the package bees. That seems like exactly the wrong thing to do, to me; I've never once even bought, or considered buying, terramycin. Likewise, I tend to recommend the book "Beekeeping for Dummies" for any beginners or prospects, but the book does seem to advocate feeding fumagilin as a prophylactic rather than a treatment and I tell people I recommend the book to that I personally strongly recommend against that.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  7. #67
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    But let's assume he's completely right: Package genetics absolutely change from year to year, just like swarm genetics are different for each swarm; so it's not like he was getting the same faulty genetics with his packages year after year after year. Can you think of any reason aside from genetics that swarms have a higher survivability than packages? Any reason at all? I've already thought of several, but I'd like to hear your thoughts first.
    Well yes, there are lots of reasons. A couple-- swarms are thrown from hives that are healthy enough to reproduce. A primary swarm has a proven queen. And there are others.

    However, you aren't understanding the specific situation. Here's a quote from an email he sent me:

    June 02' got my first hive. 03'-07' purchased 54 packages of bees losing 50-90% each year. 2007' put out 40 swarm catch boxes caught 15 mostly feral swarms. Winter 07/08 only lost one of the swarms and but lost all the package bees.
    That is not a gradual change. I think such an abrupt change means a bit more than "he got better at keeping bees."

    In any case, I don't think it's all genetics. Tim is a semi-fanatical anti-sugar guy, and at some point he went to 3 deep brood nests to avoid any necessity for feeding. He uses a form of nectar management as well that helps him avoid swarming in spite of his massive hives. But I think the main reason his bees do so well without treatment is that his hives are not being disrupted by chemicals that can be injurious to bees. It's hard to get this across to folks who treat, because they believe sincerely that what they are doing is helping their bees. I think there's pretty strong evidence that things like CCD and generally unthrifty colonies are the result of many factors, and while acaricides may temporarily knock back mites, they might well be doing enough harm to the bees that the present level of mortality has become the new normal.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Well yes, there are lots of reasons. A couple-- swarms are thrown from hives that are healthy enough to reproduce. A primary swarm has a proven queen. And there are others.

    However, you aren't understanding the specific situation. Here's a quote from an email he sent me:


    That is not a gradual change. I think such an abrupt change means a bit more than "he got better at keeping bees."
    It suggests more; but how do we know without a control? He said he started his very first hive mid-summer, and in less than a year's time somehow decided to expand to over 50 HIVES based on confidence attained from half a year's beekeeping experience. What was he thinking? That's frankly outrageous to me. Hey maybe he was up to it, but t's a trial by fire at the very least; no reasonable person could have expected anything less than significant losses for the first couple of years. In those circumstances, I don't doubt that already-healthy swarms stood a significantly better chance in his bee yards than brand new queens and the sudden transition makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    In any case, I don't think it's all genetics. Tim is a semi-fanatical anti-sugar guy, and at some point he went to 3 deep brood nests to avoid any necessity for feeding. He uses a form of nectar management as well that helps him avoid swarming in spite of his massive hives. But I think the main reason his bees do so well without treatment is that his hives are not being disrupted by chemicals that can be injurious to bees. It's hard to get this across to folks who treat, because they believe sincerely that what they are doing is helping their bees. I think there's pretty strong evidence that things like CCD and generally unthrifty colonies are the result of many factors, and while acaricides may temporarily knock back mites, they might well be doing enough harm to the bees that the present level of mortality has become the new normal.
    My own method was to always leave a medium of honey on top of my double-deeps for winter. I did have to feed a couple of times, but not that often when I started leaving more liberal honey stores than many old-timers suggested. And my Carniolans usually tended to tighten their own belts in the fall, which helped immensely as well. There's more than one way to skin that particular cat - whatever floats your boat is what gets you going.

    But I do feed packages. To use a euphemism, brand new just-mated queens aren't "built" to come back to no comb, no stores, no cells to lay in. They have to be helped. Couple that with the fact that the adult workers in the package were not prepared to swarm when they were shaken, did not come with their own minimal but crucial "internal" stores of honey or whatever other physiological changes workers experience before swarming (if the queen stops laying and slims down for the swarm it seems logical to me to think that workers might have their own preparations, whatever they are), and what you get is a bunch of bees that's basically in critical condition and require some TLC above and beyond your responsibilities toward an established hive or even a swarm - and I think the shake-and-forget method your friend seems to believe in is just incompatible with that kind of increase is all.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  9. #69
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    That's generally true; but I don't think it applies in the case of things like IPM. Take drone comb, just for one possible instance. Mites lay most (but not all of course) of their own eggs in the fat juicy drone larvae; they're capped, and you remove them. and freeze the frames, thereby killing the drone brood and mites. Since 0 of the mites on the frames survive the process, and none of the mites that weren't on the frames were exposed to any part of the process, there's no way for mites to resist that kind of thing the way a bacterial strain can develop a resistance to an antibiotic through sublethal contact.
    I believe IPM does apply. When removing green drone frames you are selecting mites that prefer worker cell size.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    I don't think there is such a thing as a mite that prefers a particular cell size; and I think this is supported by the fact that you can use your drone frame over and over and you can clearly see that you're still pulling out all kinds of mites, time after time - those mites left that laid and hatched in the worker cells, keep laying more eggs on the drone frames. If it were true that the mites left on the worker cells preferred them over drone cells, then there would come a time after only a few uses when the drone comb just wouldn't pull any mites anymore, and my experience doesn't reflect that; in fact if it were true, I don't think drone frames would've taken off at all in the apicultural community. Why use this frame, which takes away from the total volume of useful comb in your hive, if it actually doesn't work?

    It seems to me that mites don't "prefer" any particular cell size, as long as they can fit in it. I believe the reason they choose drone cells is simply because they select food by volume, and drone cells contain the most food.

    ETA: to be clear: there is a large initial drop after the first use or two of the frame because you've eliminated a great deal of the breeding population. But, after that you've got a more or less steady population of mites, as evidenced by looking in the frames themselves and/or counting mites by whichever counting method you like best. But the steady population is low enough that your colony can live with it without the problems that come with rampant infestation. Remember: control, not eradication.
    Last edited by melliferal; 05-20-2013 at 07:11 PM.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  11. #71
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Harley Craig "If we treat a hive for ANYTHING and don't kill EVERYTHING the pests that survive because they are more resistant are the only ones left to breed"

    TB of all things is becoming resistant in many locales, or so I read in the news. Because, it is reported, the treatments are only partially or incorrectly used. The USMC required you to take a penicillin pill before liberty in the mid 50s. They built a brand of clap that cannot be killed with a stick! Do you think all beeks know how and use meds correctly? If you do I have a few items for sale!
    Julysun elevation 23 feet. 4 Hives, 2 years.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    That's generally true; but I don't think it applies in the case of things like IPM. Take drone comb, just for one possible instance. Mites lay most (but not all of course) of their own eggs in the fat juicy drone larvae; they're capped, and you remove them. and freeze the frames, thereby killing the drone brood and mites. Since 0 of the mites on the frames survive the process, and none of the mites that weren't on the frames were exposed to any part of the process, there's no way for mites to resist that kind of thing the way a bacterial strain can develop a resistance to an antibiotic through sublethal contact.
    Wow. I don't mean to make fun, but you do understand that mites also infect worker larvae, right? If you kill all mites that preferentially choose drones, and leave the mites that preferentially choose workers, what do you think you are breeding for?

    Certainly the mechanism is different than the pressure from antibiotics... but weren't you the person complaining about people not understanding how evolution works?

    I'm also a little dubious about claims that drone trapping is an effective survival strategy. Some studies do support it in the short term, (affects mite counts) but the BeeInformed survey showed no significant difference in colony survival between beekeepers who practice drone trapping and those who don't. It's not very good data, because the sample is only a few thousand hives, but I tend to go with actual data in making management decisions.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    It suggests more; but how do we know without a control? He said he started his very first hive mid-summer, and in less than a year's time somehow decided to expand to over 50 HIVES based on confidence attained from half a year's beekeeping experience.
    I'm sorry. If you can't comprehend what you read, then I can't give you any more attention. He bought 54 packages over 5 years.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Exactly we see it with all facets of treatment so why would it be any different for bees

  15. #75
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Wow. I don't mean to make fun, but you do understand that mites also infect worker larvae, right?
    I thought I'd communicated that pretty clearly when I said "Mites lay most (but not all of course) of their own eggs in the fat juicy drone larvae". You even included that entire sentence in your quote just now, so I'm quite confused as to how you can have missed it. The rest of that post only makes sense if the existence of mites laying in worker larvae is assumed. I am curious: what did you think that sentence meant, if not that I am aware that mites also lay eggs in worker larvae?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    If you kill all mites that preferentially choose drones, and leave the mites that preferentially choose workers, what do you think you are breeding for? Certainly the mechanism is different than the pressure from antibiotics... but weren't you the person complaining about people not understanding how evolution works?
    I'm not convinced there's such a thing as mites that preferentially choose worker larvae, as I explain above. Most of the comb in any hive is worker comb; it's a statistical inevitability that some mites will lay eggs there, which is enough to explain why it happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I'm also a little dubious about claims that drone trapping is an effective survival strategy. Some studies do support it in the short term, (affects mite counts) but the BeeInformed survey showed no significant difference in colony survival between beekeepers who practice drone trapping and those who don't. It's not very good data, because the sample is only a few thousand hives, but I tend to go with actual data in making management decisions.
    I don't want to try and promote it as a be-all, end-all strategy; it's relatively new, and in this argument what matters is the theory of operation. As I've indicated before, I only treat problems as they appear; I don't use even IPM as a matter of course.

    If you are using actual data in making management decisions, I'm not sure why you've committed to non-treating (if that's indeed what you've done; I could have misunderstood your personal philosophy). There's all kinds of anecdote by non-treaters about how they hardly ever lose a colony; but the plural of anecdote is not "data". There is in fact little objective and controlled data available out there. If, by engaging in X practice you consider yourself to be "collecting your own data", that's acceptable, and it's also what I would call my own use of drone frames.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  16. #76
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I'm sorry. If you can't comprehend what you read, then I can't give you any more attention. He bought 54 packages over 5 years.
    As I just demonstrated, you're not immune from this particular malady. I'll admit I was wrong about the outrageousness of his activity; but I stand by my assessment that buying packages and not feeding them was bound to result in some dead packages; whereas swarms are practically designed to establish new hives without being "fed"; it's their raison d'etre.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  17. #77
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    [QUOTE=melliferal;943155]But again, most of us have come to understand as I pointed out that eradication is not a viable goal, and so it doesn't need to be a complete panacea. It doesn't need to destroy 100% of the mites. Any method merely needs to reduce them to manageable levels.



    This is exactly what non-treaters face. The so-called "mite resistant" colonies they claim to be selecting for, although they're really acquiring them by chance, can become non-mite-resistant at any moment due to a swarm or a supercedure. What's saved in the meantime by queening immediately with a known-VSH bee rather than waiting for a superqueen to accidentally bumble into your hives are generations and generations of bees that won't be suffering under a mite infestation while you wait for them to slowly and agonizingly "die out naturally".



    Absolutely not; I think every single one of them honestly believes that's what's happened. I don't believe treatment-free beekeepers are charlatans.

    What I do believe, however, is that they're making an assumption they simply have no actual evidence for, which they actually cannot have evidence for, and which further is actually unlikely to be true because bees kept out in the world simply can't be genetically controlled in that way - certainly not to the levels claimed by some (one other beekeeper I've read either in this forum or another has claimed to have personally communicated with "thousands" of non-treating beekeepers who evidently never lose ANY colonies "to mites"). There can be any number of reasons a given hive doesn't die over the winter, even a mite infested one - perhaps the infestation is not serious enough to break them at that point in time. Perhaps the colony happens to have little to no mites at all purely by chance, or due to factors outside the bees' genetics. Perhaps in their regions there happens to be a pathogen which kills out or controls mites - awesome! Perhaps weather is a factor. Perhaps residual pesticide traces in the wax of the brood cells can be at a level for the time being lethal to mites but not to the bees. Perhaps a particular strain of mites developed a natural genetic mutation which is killing them off or causing them not to properly incubate. Perhaps only a couple of colonies have hygienic behavior, and the drift of some of the workers to other hives has resulted in those hives being cleaned out temporarily, but not becoming factually "mite resistant". I could go on and on; really there's a multitude of reasons why a person could be having great luck with colonies that aren't dying over the winter. There are ways to test for many of them; but unfortunately that never happens with treatment-free beekeepers. They decide pre-emptively that they've genetically cleansed their stock because that's what they intended to do and they collected no evidence to suggest otherwise because they don't see the need to collect such evidence, and anyway the result is just as good so it's all the same to them. The term is "confirmation bias".

    Where is the proof that miticides help! Show us the proof! If they worked so well and were not damaging in anyway why the heck would we not use them.

    EVERYTHING has a price either a positive or negative one.... if anything I would like to see unbiased non money backed scientific research on the long term effect on the hive and consumers of honey and wax.

    Oh ya they have released certain info on creating super mites.

    And that's why I DONT take antibiotics cause I don't want the flu coming around bigger and badder next time.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Trust me on this…you will get countless opportunities. It pops up regularly. Lots of folks go away mad. Nobody changes their mind.
    Hey now. I changed my mind in mid-thread in the one about leaving bees alone. I said I couldn't see the point of mite counts unless you planned to treat for mites.

    Then some smart person pointed out that if you had a hive that was thriving in spite of high mite counts, that might be a good queen to breed from, as it could indicate some sort of equilibrium achieved. But if you didn't do counts, you wouldn't know what was going on. So I decided if I were someday to get past my primary education and start purposefully breeding bees, I'd have to start making mite counts.

    Of course, right now I'm still in kindergarten.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    As I just demonstrated, you're not immune from this particular malady. I'll admit I was wrong about the outrageousness of his activity; but I stand by my assessment that buying packages and not feeding them was bound to result in some dead packages; whereas swarms are practically designed to establish new hives without being "fed"; it's their raison d'etre.
    Frankly, it was unclear to me why, if you understood that mites infect worker larvae, you couldn't understand that removing those mites that infected drone larvae was a selective pressure. Say you're right, and mites only preferentially infect drones, and infect worker brood only by accident. Then you have to wonder how mites select drone brood to infect (because obviously they have evolved some mechanism for selecting drone brood) and if the ones that infect worker brood made a mistake. Do you want to select for mites that mistakenly infect worker brood? Because that's what you are doing when you remove drone larvae.

    Tim Ives began to successfully keep bees without treatment once he began to use feral stock. But swarms form only a small component of his stock now. He has 150 or so hives now, and most came from splits-- he no longer buys bees.

    You seem to be emitting a cloud of scientific buzz words, without understanding a basic tenet of science. Let's say you form a hypothesis: "If you don't treat, your bees will die." It takes only one confounding instance to render that hypothesis incorrect. If even one person does not treat, and their bees do not die at rates any greater than the rates at which treated bees die, then you have to bid that hypothesis farewell. It Was Wrong. There are now multiple examples of beekeepers whose untreated bees have better survival rates than most who treat, so there is no longer any point to defending the original assertion. Now all you can usefully do is try to figure out why your hypothesis was incorrect.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: HITS method of mite control

    My question then is do you think we are dooming ourselves because our genetics will get weaker and weaker, or are we able to compensate with technolgy/science or whatever.
    There is a lot of evidence that says that we are. The problem comes from viruses that can go through several thousand generations of evolution in a few hours and humans that have technology that can take decades to develop a vaccine or treatment.

    Its even happening with bacteria that are evolutionary slugs compared to viruses. The time period that new antibiotics are effective is decreasing rapidly. We are in serious trouble, especially because a no country would support a live and let die policy yet that is exactly what is going to happen, and in fact is starting to happen now that we have bacteria that are immune to all known antibiotics.

    Why is this post about treatment free? Its simple. Your HITS is a direct insult to treatment free beekeepers.

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