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  1. #1
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    Default 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and CCD

    Interview with 3rd generation beek Jim Doan who is finally giving up and selling his farm after years of heavy losses he attributes to neonics and their role in CCD:

    http://www.bouldercountybeekeepers.o...ticide-losses/

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    Once a beekeeper always a beekeeper,
    Jim sorry to see your problems. Thats some hard losses to take concurrently.

  3. #3
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    Rochester, NY
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    Don't get too teary eyed, he said he was getting out 7 years ago. On the government subsidy wagon big time.
    One article has him saying there was nothing he could do to save his bees because of neonics, them shows him holding a drone with Deformed Wing Virus >>>> evidence of a high mite load.

    $$$$$$$$$$$$$

  4. #4
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    I wondered when someone would Post a Thread about Jim's situation. Thanks BigDawg. A good interview. A tragedy for Jim and his family.

    Coffe Bee, when you have invested your whole life and the well being of your family on keeping bees as Jim, his parents, and his Grandparents have you will do what you need to do to stay above water. It is easy enough for those of us who have not lived in Jim's, and Ed and Judy Doan's skin to look on them w/ a critical eye. It costs us as individuals next to nothing to be compassionate.
    Last edited by sqkcrk; 06-20-2013 at 08:56 AM.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  5. #5
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    While I am sorry for his loss, I can't help but feel he was being used to push an agenda. The article, interview, pop-ups in the video, and sponsors are all clearly very anti-neonic. Fine, they are at least honest about their bias.

    However they are claiming his losses are clearly from Neo-nics. Where's the proof? Who bought all of his assets? Someone else sees opportunity where he obviously sees none.

    Just because you are a multi-generational business does not mean you automatically succeed. I am part of a 3rd generation business (non bee related). Business has changed dramatically since the 50's and we have continually adjusted to those changes. You either adjust to challenges and have the fire in your belly to succeed or plod along without changing, eventually milking the business to death. I've watched this time and time again and invariably they blame it on something other than their inability to adjust to industry changes as they exit the industry.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  6. #6
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    This multigenerational argument makes me nauseous. Just because a family has been in a business for decades does not mean the next generation has the backbone or ambition to keep the business. going. I have watched multigenerational farms go down the tube all my life because dad and grandad retired and the lazy 3rd genration ran the farm into the ground. I do not know anything about the Doans. I do know their are successful bee operations out there, some in very heavy neonic use areas. All it takes is one lazy year of not treating varroa and the multigenerational bee business is gone. One more thing about the multigenerational farms that I have witnessed go down. None of them admitted it was their poor judgment that caused the bankrupcy. It was always someone elses fault. One of the farms I speak of was the family I come from, and it was pure stupidity that caused it. My uncle had farmed for more that 50 years, and one year without any crop sunk the ship.
    Dave

  7. #7
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    It is sad to see ANY beekeeper call it quits with the situation we are facing. The loss of the bees and the other "background" pollinators could cause more than the immediate loss of the approximately 1/3 of our food supply - it could instigate a "domino effect" and topple most of the food web due to the sudden loss of too many species.

    This scenario, which I often call "Reverse Malthusian" - the food supply crumbling under the population, would likely not be very orderly, nor very pleasant. The Earth's 8 billion humans could be reduced to 1.5 billion in fairly short order, and I would expect a good degree of violence in determining who gets the last of the food.

    If Beesource readers have noticed my tendency to promote Instrumental Insemination ("I.I.") for the purpose of selective breeding desirable traits, the above scenario is my reason! We need all the methods out there making LOTS of bees, ESPECIALLY GOOD BEES!!!

    True, adaptation is important, true each generation lives in different times. Sometimes the stupidity is the neighboring farmer spraying poisons in the daytime, sometimes it's new pesticides and/or fungicides, sometimes it's me not having my queen yard palletized and ready to move at a moment's notice, other times it's acts of randomness, God, or what have you?

    I'm reminded of some lines from a Robert W. Service poem,
    " ...and each passing day, that quiet clay seemed to heavier and heavier grow,
    but on, I went, though the dogs were spent, and the grub was getting low,
    and the trail was bad, and I felt half-mad, but I swore I would not give in..."

    I have had severe setbacks in each of my first 5 years as a beekeeper, but nonetheless have gotten to the point of getting financed to build a commercial queen rearing and nucleus colony sales business. I acknowledge my own faults, and dig in and keep swinging hard, but I am not loaded with a family of children to feed, nor a lot of existing bills as others might be. Now, as I get set to purchase land, put up a workshop, buy and/or build a lot of equipment, this situation changes, and my resolve gets as hard as Clancy of the Mounted Police (another Service poem).

    The Doan's exit is indeed disturbing. My instincts tell me that the answers lie in: IPM; genetics & I.I.; Organic Farm-Only Zoning; never taking more than half your bees on the road; never keeping all your bees in one place; making the best hives, frames, tops, and pallet bases you can for your bees to live in; and educating the world about the challenges facing bees. Most of this requires EFFORT. Many a new beekeeper is allergic to EFFORT, always asking for an easier way. I worry for their bees.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    I have never worked bees w/ Jim Doan, but, I believe I know him well enough to accurately assume that he has looked at all of the possible solutions to his problems. Though I don't know why he didn't seek other places to Summer his bees. Jim's part of the State is heavily farmed for produce, grapes, corn, and soybeans. Maybe things would be different had his bees been somewhere else. I don't know.

    Jim has grown up w/ bees and has been on his own for some time now. So, I wouldn't characterize him as taking over from the previous generation and letting things go down hill or out of control.

    I don't know how anyone else can know what Jim doesn't know about what has caused his operation to suffer in the way it has. It is all a matter of belief, not hard fact knowledge.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  9. #9
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    It is really sad that experienced beekeeper leave the field. I am sure that Jim did everything possible to keep bees. It is easy to blame on person who fail - not nice! To me, three generation of beekeepers in the family mean a lot. People need to realize, that there is (?) a problem with the bees and it needs to be addressed soon. Denying the problem (as often I saw on beesource) could not help bees. I am really sorry for Jim Doan loss of his bees.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  10. #10
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    Quote Originally Posted by kilocharlie View Post
    ...
    -Organic Farm-Only Zoning;
    -never taking more than half your bees on the road;
    -never keeping all your bees in one place;
    -making the best hives, frames, tops, and pallet bases you can for your bees to live in;

    ...educating the world about the challenges facing bees. ..
    I think, it is really nice approach, especially organic farm zoning. May be we should have "organic-bee zoning" as well? No Monsanto/Bayer 20-mile fly zone?
    Серёжа, Sergey

  11. #11
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I don't know how anyone else can know what Jim doesn't know about what has caused his operation to suffer in the way it has. It is all a matter of belief, not hard fact knowledge.
    Here, here! We are all entitled to our beliefs. The article though spins his beekeeping demise being caused by neo-nics as hard fact knowledge. This has yet to be proven but that gets in the way of beliefs being considered as valid as hard fact knowledge. That's a great way to start a lynch mob.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  12. #12
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    I don't know Jim, nor do I know any details of his operation or problems.

    Imagine you are a banker, and a beekeeper says, "my bees have been killed by pesticide exposure that I didn't cause, and I have no way to measure. Can I borrow some $$$ to purchase some more bees and keep them in the same places that had so much pesticides that it just killed the bees that I had? Oh look...those darn pesticides....my bees died again."
    ...don't you have questions like:
    "If the locations you had your bees in had enough pesticides to kill your bees, why did you think placing the newly purchased bees in the same place would succeed?"

    "What did you do to protect MY investment in YOUR bees after you became aware that there was enough pesticides in THEIR environment to kill them?"

    "Why didn't you expect these newly purchased bees to end up with the same lethal pesticide exposure as your dead bees? Why didn't you protect my investment?"

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  13. #13
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    listening to a bit of the interview.

    What he is calling the first signs was bees coming off of almonds (2007) and not raising queens well/at all. I'm not sure of data wrt imidacloprid and this phenomenon (or if there is any), but it sounds like the results they have been getting from fungicide contaminated almond pollen.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  14. #14
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    May be we should have "organic-bee zoning" as well? No Monsanto/Bayer 20-mile fly zone?
    As soon as you (or someone of like mind) buy the ground to do that on you've got it. When enough money can be made selling "No Monsanto/Bayer 20-mile fly zone" product to cover the purchased land you've got a viable business model.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  15. #15
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    Take this for what its worth as I only listened to about the first 20 minutes but didn't he say the first sign of problems were lots of dead bees in the entrances in the fall as be was about to move them? Fall pesticide exposure is unusual. That sounds more like virus to me. Also the claim that his mite levels were always at 0 to 3 sounds to me a bit unbelievable unless you are using lots of miticides which, of course, begs a lot more questions. As a 3rd generation beekeeper myself I can sure feel his pain and don't mean to completely dismiss Jim's analysis. I do, though, feel that this interview is somewhat lacking in objectivity.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  16. #16
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    Beekeeping is hard, stressful work. At times it is heartbreaking. People burn out. There is no shame in this. The thing to do is move on, find something less stressful, less overwhelming, and allow oneself to heal. In time maybe keeping bees will be attractive again. Maybe not. Maybe the new enterprise will be more uplifting. Either way, we only get one go-round in this life so we should spend it doing whatever brings us satisfaction and nobody should knock us for it, or second-guess us, or judge us for our choices. Instead we should just wish them well.

    JMO


    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  17. #17
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    You know, after reading these post, several things become clear; losses of this kind are tragic regardless of the cause, there is definitely a pesticide problem & everyone will always have their opinions on every matter. I'm not saying that's wrong, but isn't analyzing this beeks problems NOW, after the fact, a waste of time? Just my thoughts which I am positive some of you will take issue with.
    Beeman
    All things may be lawful; but not all things are advantagous.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    People who are analyzing Jim's problems now are like those who were doing so before. No one seems to know for certain what the cause was.

    I wonder who bought his outfit?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  19. #19
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    Fully agreed, but to listen the the interview or read the article you'd think it's a clear slam dunk Neo-nic poisoning case when in fact that's not been proven. This was down right propaganda if you weren't thinking critically and swallowed it hook line and sinker.

    Someone bought the outfit, and whomever did didn't think the neo-nic issue was serious enough to not buy the "poisoned" equipment. I'm sorry for Jim's loss but I believe he's being used to push an agenda that's low on facts but high on emotions.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  20. #20
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    Default Re: 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and

    I believe that the system has failed us all. The New York State Dept. of Environmental Conservation refused to do its job. Had they we would have some idea what may have killed Jim's bees. Or what didn't. Now we will never know.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

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