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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Hofer View Post
    I cannot see how it appears to be surrounded by cornfields. There is one field, and until planted with corn, it is not a "cornfield". Beekeeper was there before the corn was planted, and therefore, there is a big chance he/she could not have known that corn will be sown into that field. Anything could be planted there.
    Ordinarily I would agree, but the article said it was one of this guy's normal yearly bee-yards. If he was there every year, he had to know it was corn. I find it exceedingly unlikely that he was factually unaware there would be corn in those fields. The fact that, as someone else already pointed out, he's already been a part of a lawsuit filed over this exact issue apparently, also makes it very, very difficult to believe. How many times does someone have to be caught out in a storm before they learn to recognize the signs of an impending storm and take proactive measures so they don't get caught out again?

    Besides, even if he just honest-to-goodness SOMEHOW really genuinely had no idea it was going to be a cornfield, it's very obviously a farm field of some kind. Wouldn't you want to ask, make yourself informed? Heck, introduce yourself as a fellow neighboring agriculturalist and all that? Not in the least bit interested in what might end up in that field, considering that according to his own earlier lawsuit, happenings in a farm field killed a bunch of his bees historically?
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Hate to point it out, but in 99 out of 100 cases the corn would also not be planted until after the Dandilion Blooms. I am not in MI so I wasn't going to point it out.
    And the rest of the post.

    For one, this year has been different weather-wise. We have people planting corn up here, and have been for over a week, and dandelions are not yet blooming or even getting close to full bloom. The willows and maples are blooming, as well as elm trees and other trees. Until that time, there was NO forage for our bees. Were we unwise to put them into what every year is a very good location based on no dandelions at the present time?

    I did not say that the yard was ok for that number of hives. My post specifically said that it could be an excellent location for bees. The number of hives is totally besides the point and does not serve this discussion. IF the chemical killed one hive, it would/could also kill many more.

    I do disagree that there are only 3 acres of uncultivated land. Look to the background of the video. There is much uncultivated land in that location. (Maybe we're watching a different video).

    Blaming him for not knowing what was being seeded???? We have bees in agricultural areas. Assuming bees forage up to 3 miles radius = 18 000 acres. It would be absurd for me to even try to find out what is being put into each of these acres. Possibly talking to 30 or more different owners. If bees fly 4 miles, that's 32 000 acres. If you have 50 locations, on a 3 mile radius, your bees cover 900 000 acres. Are you telling me you know what goes into each of those acres? And what would you do if you found out someone or many people were going to use something that kills your bees? What would you do if for generations your family has owned the parcels of land your bees are on?

    Bottom line - if the chemical killed the bees, then it needs to be investigated. I did not enter this discussion with the intent to ban or not ban a chemical. I DO find it quite appalling that I as a beekeeper should be blamed if I've kept bees on a good location for many years and then they die because of chemical spraying. It could easily happen to me too. The 18 000 acres around me? Why don't people spill mercury on their land and then blame me when it gets into my well-water?

    My last post in response to the above.
    Happiness comes from within

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    Ordinarily I would agree, but the article said it was one of this guy's normal yearly bee-yards. If he was there every year, he had to know it was corn. I find it exceedingly unlikely that he was factually unaware there would be corn in those fields.
    And the rest of the post.

    How was he to know it was corn to be put into these fields? Or is there only one crop being sown in MI?

    I don't see the "fact" as you stated. From my point of view, I feel that this discussion has turned into an attack on Mr. Ellis (whom I do not know, have never seen or met). If the chemical killed the bees, the the discussion can proceed from there. Blaming the beekeeper for not knowing what was being seeded in the 18 000 of normal forage acres around the bee-yard is hard for me to swallow (and I don't).



    Last post in this thread.
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  4. #64
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Hardly accurate Yes bees roam that far, but planter dust does not..... Never seen bees to fly 4 miles if the forage is good.
    Those are clearly feed lot beekeeping at its finest. do a bit of math from the yeilds and you will see that the possible yeilds from those acres woould not build honey for 1000 hives...

    Yes you guys may be planting before dandilons.. probably because planter dust got to the farmer!......

    Don't leave the discussion because you think you have said it all the discussion is the point,

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    If I were a betting man...

    I doubt that Steve had the forethought to trap or collect conataminated dust. It could be as simple as petri dishes. or as complex as pollen measuring devices.

    It's part of the problem with folks tht think that sending dead bees and hive products out for testing will prove the issue.

    It won't do the trick here in the US.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    ... Never seen bees to fly 4 miles if the forage is good....
    Do you actually track the bees? How you know? I was under impression that it is common knowledge that bees do forage within 3-4-5 miles radius from the beehive. Are you intended to diminish this knowledge? With proper meteorological conditions I believe that dust may travel a few miles distance. We commonly have the dust from Mohave Desert in LA. It is more than few miles. I also saw the dust from agriculture in the Central Valley - it covers the horizon... If airplane used - a few miles easy, you even would not see it as a dust - particles are so small and thus, stay in the air ... and travel
    Серёжа, Sergey

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Let me run this up the flagpole, and see if anyone salutes...

    All the majors involved create a fund and replace any honeybees, and equipment, lost here in the US during a season.

    That's a mere 30 billion.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    Yes, how silly of those people to put fuel in their Pinto's gas tank knowing that they might blow up.......
    Once again you don't understand the issue. It's not putting the gas in the fuel tank, its stopping your pinto where someone might ram you from the back. You see it wasn't the pinto's problem, it was the guy that hit you from behind. I mean, how could any corporation expect that exploding gas tanks from a rearend collision would be a problem.

    Oh, that's right if I remember correctly Ford did, but they figured that the profits from the sell of their defective product would offset the death of a few burning children.

    Oh, that's right, the Bayers, Monsantos, Syngenta etc, figures they can hold off the small guy with big money. Hmm, wasn't their a similar case with big tobacco until one guy came forward and ratted out the liars?

    We need to just poison this world and make as much money as we can, then buy a trip to another planet and let everyone else here die, because I mean, it is the survival of the fittest and if some poor beek chooses that profession that doesn pay much that's his tough luck right?
    "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country." Nathan Hale, 1776

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Do you actually track the bees? How you know? I was under impression that it is common knowledge that bees do forage within 3-4-5 miles radius from the beehive. Are you intended to diminish this knowledge? l
    Bees only travel about 2 miles. It is not too hard to tell when you have been placing yards for a few years. A.Put 2 yards a mile apart and watch your honey yeild. B.Place two yards 4 miles apart and watch your honey yeild.C. Place two yards 6 miles apart and watch you honey yield. B and C will be pretty similar. A will be seriously reduced.

    Of course there are other factors involved, but do it often enough and you will get the picture.... 2 miles.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Hofer View Post
    And the rest of the post.

    How was he to know it was corn to be put into these fields? Or is there only one crop being sown in MI?
    Answered in the same post:

    Besides, even if he just honest-to-goodness SOMEHOW really genuinely had no idea it was going to be a cornfield, it's very obviously a farm field of some kind. Wouldn't you want to ask, make yourself informed? Heck, introduce yourself as a fellow neighboring agriculturalist and all that? Not in the least bit interested in what might end up in that field, considering that according to his own earlier lawsuit, happenings in a farm field killed a bunch of his bees historically?
    He has 1) previously experienced heavy kills
    2) in vicinity to farm fields, and
    3) was so convinced it was the farm chemicals that he joined a lawsuit on those grounds.

    Now despite that history, he's 1) leaving a large number of bees
    2) in vicinity to farm fields.

    No matter whether he knew there'd be corn there or not, he knew they were farm fields. His bees have had previous bad experience with farm fields; so, he's once again leaving bees near farm fields because why?

    WHY didn't he know there would be corn planted? Why wouldn't he ask the farmers, or do something else to try and get that information? Did he take any reasonable, practical actions to protect his bees or did he figure righteous audacity was sufficient? I mean, I'm not saying he's wrong that the farm chemicals killed his bees; what I'm saying is, he's SUED for it before, so how could he not anticipate that kind of event?
    Last edited by melliferal; 05-21-2013 at 05:17 PM.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    That's over 1500 hives that he put in harms way.

    Are you saying that it's a 'political' bee kill?

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Here's an analogy: you set up a dozen hives in a brand new outyard, that's located adjacent to a road that runs between the local high school and the local family residential area. In mid-summer, you arrive for an inspection to find every single hive destroyed - toppled, obvious traces of fire and consumer pesticide spraying, and profanity spray-painted all over everything. You call the police; they duly take your report but are unable to identify the perpetrators with any certainty, so nobody gets charged, arrested, fined, or punished in any way.

    Next year, you have an opportunity to set up a new outyard, 1 block away from that previous location, along the same road.

    Do you:

    1) Put your hives there, and act SHOCKED when the new yard is similarly vandalized in mid-summer, or

    2) Say "screw that jazz" and set them up on the other side of town, away from routes frequently traversed by high school students?
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    That's over 1500 hives that he put in harms way.

    Are you saying that it's a 'political' bee kill?
    Somebody else suggested that; I don't know the guy. This just seemed SO preventable to me that I'm kind of amazed.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    WHY didn't he know there would be corn planted? Why wouldn't he ask the farmers, or do something else to try and get that information? Did he take any reasonable, practical actions to protect his bees or did he figure righteous audacity was sufficient? I mean, I'm not saying he's wrong that the farm chemicals killed his bees; what I'm saying is, he's SUED for it before, so how could he not anticipate that kind of event?
    Better question: Why didn't the farmer planting the pesticide-coated corn seed--the very type of seed that had allegedly killed many bees the year before--why didn't he wait to plant when it wasn't a windy day so as to minimize planter dust and make sure the poison stayed on his property?

    As other have mentioned, it seems pretty incredulous to think that someone would intentionally risk over a 1/4 million dollars worth of hives just to make a political point against neonicotinoids......

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    Better question: Why didn't the farmer planting the pesticide-coated corn seed--the very type of seed that had allegedly killed many bees the year before--why didn't he wait to plant when it wasn't a windy day so as to minimize planter dust and make sure the poison stayed on his property?
    That one's easy: his supplier has told him that the planter dust isn't a serious threat, and no court has yet ruled otherwise. He either personally was never made aware of the lawsuit, or has decided that since the lawsuit was unsuccessful, the plaintiffs' claims are without any merit, including their claims about the toxicity of the planter dust.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    As other have mentioned, it seems pretty incredulous to think that someone would intentionally risk over a 1/4 million dollars worth of hives just to make a political point against neonicotinoids......
    Well granted, but the alternative is just - I dunno, sheer apathy? I'm sorry but I cannot buy the kind of plain ignorance on the part of an otherwise-knowledgeable and successful commercial beek that people here are suggesting in apology.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by DRUR View Post
    Once again you don't understand the issue. It's not putting the gas in the fuel tank, its stopping your pinto where someone might ram you from the back.
    Like at a traffic light? Or a stop sign? The point is that the product design was/is flawed......not the victims.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quick question: what was the final disposition of the lawsuit Mr. Ellis was part of?
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    The point is that the product design was/is flawed.
    Point well taken

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDawg View Post
    not the victims.
    don't tell anyone, but it's a politically corrupty system, from top to bottom. Rich get richer, and the less rich simply don't matter, they are just victims.

    Let me give you an example. Found out a few months back that all commercially sold legumes seeds are treated with a fungicide [I was told all commercially sold seeds are]. So I pay the seed company to buy seed to plant legumes to add nitrogen to my soil. I treat my seeds with rhizaboum bacteria that I pay extra for in order to cause the legumes to take nitrogen from the air, and deposit it into root nodules which puts nitrogen in the soil. I mean I pay extra for the innoculant since chemical fertilizers kill the natural bacteria in the soil. And the fungicide that the commercially purchased legume seeds are coated with kill the rhizoboum bacteria. Now does that make any sense?

    I was told by the idiot at the seed company don't worry about it just buy chemical nitrogen to put nitrogen in the soil.

    It's all about the money guys and the love of money is the root of evil. And the chemical companies give the Universities, grant money, so those Univiersities dare not come up with any contrary studies lest the universities lose their grant money. And if these large corporations do go to court, they will spend money to find out that potential jurors [like gmcharlie, blue diamond, camero7 etc] are sympathetic to their cause. They will arrange voir dire questions to have non sympathetic jurors [BigDawg etc] dismissed [they have spent big bucks to discover this], I mean the judge owns stock in the corporation [not directly of course but indirectly through his pension plan] so the judge is sympathetic to their cause. And those bringing the suit don't have anywhere near enough money to buy the system and be successfull. Remember the tobacco lawsuits that only became successful when there was an insider that got tired of their crap.

    But then, these plaintiff beekeepers are buying their miticides from these same chemical companies, so really, what do the commercial beeks have to complain about?

    Danny

    Danny Unger
    "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country." Nathan Hale, 1776

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    ...Next year, you have an opportunity to set up a new outyard, 1 block away from that previous location, along the same road....
    I would place my beeyard in the original place and install video cameras to catch vandals. Than, I will work hard to put them into the jail. Also, I will purchase AK-47 (if legal) and made sure that everybody saw me patrolling my beeyard properly equipped. I am intended to protect my property and my integrity.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    It's not so obvious, that's the real problem in this discussion.
    Not true - most parties actually agree that dust form of the chemical is acute to the bees. Solution for that was - do not create the dust
    Серёжа, Sergey

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