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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Nope. Dust traps are the key.

    You need to show that the farmer used the product improperly. He was negligent when he caused the coat to abrade from the seed.

    You can't win in the aerial spraying case because the co defendants won't abandon the farmer.

    The evidence isn't as solid. You can't prove the kill there either. You would need something like the dust traps to prove translocation. But, it's not a product defect due to negligence. You're supposed to spray it.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Barry:

    His counsel will have already told him about the U.S. case law. No beekeeper has ever won a pesticide kill case of that type.

    Without the dust traps, he has no case.

    It's just the way it is.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by WCMN View Post
    I am not saying that I know if the bees crossed the property line and went to the neighbors but there is not much forage in a just planted corn field.

    Randy
    A good point. An important point; but not good enough all by itself.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    ...As beekeepers, the message here is, take care where you keep your bees..
    I could not move my bees, I have no other place to go
    Серёжа, Sergey

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    in March 2013, the US EPA was sued by a coalition of beekeepers
    Sued by only 4 beekeepers, one of which was Steve Ellis:
    http://www.agprofessional.com/news/G...61.html?page=2

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    Sued by only 4 beekeepers, one of which was Steve Ellis...
    I do not think, it is "only". From cited above:
    The plaintiffs also include beekeeper Ellis of Old Mill Honey Co; Jim Doan of Doan Family Farms; Tom Theobald of Niwot Honey Farm; and Bill Rhodes of Bill Rhodes Honey. The plaintiffs also include the groups Beyond Pesticides, the Center for Food Safety, the Pesticide Action Network North America, the Sierra Club and the Center for Environmental Health.

    Anybody familiar with these names?
    Серёжа, Sergey

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Sergey,
    you can sue anyone for anything in America. Trial Lawyers don't target the guilty, they just go for feasible targets with most money (regardless if they were the culprits or not)

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Chemical dust from regulated chemical? Apparently, you are not exactly right: in March 2013, the US EPA was sued by a coalition of beekeepers ... to sow the seeds which apparently blew clothianidin-laden dust off the seeds ... I got it from Wiki, but you could find more on the Internet.

  8. #48
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    Feb 2013
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    Rochester, NY
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    26

    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Sure; interesting to hear about Mr Ellis- appears to be the only beekeeper in the State with that pesticide problem, not forthcoming with definitive data, putting their bees in crops not beneficial (in harms way). In NY we have 1 of the 4 EPA plaintiffs, similar situation. How about mite problems, government subsidies, too?
    Do these beekeepers have a lot of "baggage"?

    I'd caution anyone not to get too emotionally invested with these guys' problems.

    'You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but you cannot fool all the people all the time'

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    what you have here is a failure to communicate. Just because there is a fence between the property doesn't mean you can't go over and talk to the farmer. It's a lot easier than a lawsuit.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    I don't know if that's going to be helpful after the bee kill.

    Steve's choices seem to be to move the hives when that farmer is planting, or fight against environmental contamination by modern agriculture.

    What would I do? I'd move em if I was in that situation.

    However, that doesn't preclude me from contacting the europeans and asking for help and advisement as well as 'dust traps'.

    Steve is well within his rights to make an issue of this. However, I'm not convinced that he has the evidence that he needs.

    Finally, I hope that Steve isn't deliberately putting his bees in harm's way for the sake of environmental politics. That would be unethical.

    Remember how I felt about the beekeepers who kept their bees in an EU quarantine zone, and then went on a 'hunger strike' to protest their losses?

    Here's a link to an EFSA study. You'll have to scroll down to p. 38 to see that dust exposure was found to be an acute risk in many cases:

    http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/doc/3066.pdf
    Last edited by WLC; 05-21-2013 at 06:12 AM.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    Okay this makes sense and do know I agree with you. But let's play chess for a moment and think like we're the corn farmer, and someone just accused us of being at fault for this problem. What will our defense be?

    !
    The defense will be simple. NO MORE BEES ALLOWED ON THE PROERTY.. Hunting has already suffered from this lawsuit mentality. DANG fewq of the pro beeks own land. they/we rely on the grace of others, and some want to screw that up.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I hope that Steve isn't deliberately putting his bees in harm's way for the sake of environmental politics. That would be unethical.
    He seems to keep popping up claiming the same issue (without supporting documentation). Why would you place bees around corn fields that are being planted? There's no forage there. I believe putting his bees in harm's way to then cry foul is exactly what he's doing. This appears to be pure politics.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    There is plenty of forage other then just corn fields. Dandelion bloom is a great flow provider. Those bloom in fields that are adjacent to the corn fields. Those of you stating "the beekeeper is dumb for putting his bees next to cornfields" wouldn't be making that comment if you were the ones being affected. It's easy to ridicule someone who's shoes you haven't walked in. The problem is the chem's don't stay where the manufacturer claim they do. Many beekeepers are stationary in "ag areas". It's not as simple as just "be smart and move away".

    Some here are saying "why are others not coming forward with bee kills?" It's because they don't see it happening at such an obvious kill as this one. The hive is damaged from the get-go but the signs are not obvious to begin with. Most times with "corn treatment hive issues" it starts with more then normal dead/dying bees at the entrance. To most it appears minor.....but as time passes you will see sick brood that is discolored(not a bright pearly white). That generation is weakened and those sick bees raise the next sick generation. The queen is fed the same contaminated food. That causes damage to her. Not all hives in a yard will have the same effects. Is it because of genetic disposition....is it because of their higher populations at the time of contact that they are able to over come the damage....maybe it's because that particular hive was foraging 1/2 mile in the other direction.

    We know the treatment dust kills bees. It's obvious there is a flaw allowing it to happen just as it is obvious some of you who keep blaming the beekeeper don't have to deal with the problem.
    Leer Family Honey Farm-Shannon Leer

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by BayHighlandBees View Post
    what you have here is a failure to communicate. Just because there is a fence between the property doesn't mean you can't go over and talk to the farmer. It's a lot easier than a lawsuit.
    That's kind of what I tried to allude in one of my earlier posts. It's my understanding that most farmers, if you talk to them about your bees and when the best and worst times to be using chemicals when they're around, the farmers are generally sympathetic. I understand that corn farmers, not dependent on bees for pollination, might not be as sympathetic as some - but you never know until you try. Did Mr. Ellis try?

    Every time I watch the video, my reaction is exactly the same - why on Earth did he put bees in that spot? It appears to be surrounded, engulfed, bordered, besieged from every direction by nothing but cornfields. What in the world did he intend for all those colonies to eat? Just from that handful of lone trees they show in the video? I'll check again, but I didn't see no dandelion forage on the video, or any other forage of any kind really. Buncha dead grass.

    Yeah, I know that the problem is that chemicals don't stay exactly where they are applied. That is a huge problem. I totally, 100% realize that. But, it's not exactly a secret; it's something I've already known for a long, long time which is precisely why I'd never put bees in a plot where they're completely surrounded by chemical use. I do deal with the problem - proactively, by keeping my bees out of obvious harm's way. I don't know how long Mr. Ellis has been keeping bees, but it HAS to have been long enough to fully realize the dangers associated with that location. Did he just not care?

    And yeah, I know that some beekeepers don't have an option as to where their bees go; as a hobbyist, all my hives were pretty much stationary. But that's not the situation being presented in that video - those bees are quad palletized. Is Ellis not a commercial beek? Regardless if he is or isn't, those particular bees are deliberately set up for mobility. Moving them IS an option for him.

    I don't know the guy at all, I'm not read in the pertinent legal history, and so I don't feel comfortable opining as to whether or not Mr. Ellis premeditated this kill - some of you are better equipped for that particular show. But...seriously dude, it is well within your power to save those remaining bees.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    As long as the air planter is properly configured and there is moisture in the ground there is little danger. Still doing ok after 3 years of planting next to my hives with treated seed. Didn't see any dead bees in any of the years. It was a little dry this year and I was a little nervous, but no problems.

  16. #56
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    San Mateo, Ca, USA
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    I believe the European problem was that the neonic dust blew directly into the hive. Is he alleging that in this case the neonic dust blew on flowers w pollen which the bees gathered and brought back to the hive killing the newborns and nurse bees?

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    It appears to be surrounded, engulfed, bordered, besieged from every direction by nothing but cornfields. What in the world did he intend for all those colonies to eat? Just from that handful of lone trees they show in the video? I'll check again, but I didn't see no dandelion forage on the video, or any other forage of any kind really. Buncha dead grass.
    I cannot see how it appears to be surrounded by cornfields. There is one field, and until planted with corn, it is not a "cornfield". Beekeeper was there before the corn was planted, and therefore, there is a big chance he/she could not have known that corn will be sown into that field. Anything could be planted there. From what it appears, there is a field, but there is also much surrounding countryside with willows and various other tree species. There also seems to be a large amount of the area that is uncultivated. Very clearly from the video, it is not YET time for dandelion bloom.

    This could perhaps be an excellent location for bees. The rolling hills could be covered in clover, and dandelions when the time is right.

    Faulting the beekeeper for choosing the location is a wrong move. In my opinion, the location seems very 'bee-able".
    Happiness comes from within

  18. #58
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    Eugene, Oregon USA
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Yes, how silly of those people to put fuel in their Pinto's gas tank knowing that they might blow up.......

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Hofer View Post
    From what it appears, there is a field, but there is also much surrounding countryside with willows and various other tree species. There also seems to be a large amount of the area that is uncultivated. Very clearly from the video, it is not YET time for dandelion bloom.
    Hate to point it out, but in 99 out of 100 cases the corn would also not be planted until after the Dandilion Blooms. I am not in MI so I wasn't going to point it out.

    Your way off on it be BEE ABLE for that number of hives. not even close..... The video shows less than 3 acres of your "rolling hills of clover"
    As for not knowing what was to be sown, that is EXACTLY his fault.... only an total fool would put 100k worth of hives out on someone elses ground and not check....... I keep hives on over 50 farms, and I know whats going on around them......Its my investment and my RESPONSIBILITY..... yesterday one of my landowners planted 200 acres of corn with an air seeder, 400 yards from my hives. Not only did i know and we discussed it, but the same guy actually plowed AROUND a swarm clustered on a weed on one of his farms.
    15 minutes of this clowns time could have saved him the issues......
    And yet we want to ban a chemical that is helping us eliminate bug spraying in large quanties? what a bunch of fools are we....

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by Beeslave View Post
    We know the treatment dust kills bees. It's obvious there is a flaw allowing it to happen
    It's not so obvious, that's the real problem in this discussion.
    Regards, Barry

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