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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by WCMN View Post
    Steve Ellis and Rand Honl - out of hundreds of beekeepers in southern Minnesota. Testing of sick and dying bees in Minnesota was conducted last Spring. Why no follow up reports about the test results? Why aren't the beekeepers who think neonics are to blame for last years kills eager and willing to tell us about the results of last year's testing? Could it be because the testing detected beekeeper applied chemicals?

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    While you can't prove cause and effect in Honeybee field trials, you can most certainly prove translocation. Steve and Randi need to look to some of the Italian dust trap experimental designs.

    They may not be able to prove that the dust killed their bees. However, they can prove that the pesticide went off target.

    That's a BIG no-no.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    This why we have the law! If it is proven, that my bee creates a nuisance to the neighbor - than yes, my exact bee(s), who caused the problem should be punished, it is fair. But on the same note, if neighbor decided to do a massive renovation on his site and dust from his activity contaminates my precious book-collection (for instance) I will sue him for my property damage. Mitigation of the dust is a responsibility of the "creator". I do not know, I guess, many people who supported contaminated dust are living on another planet (different from mine), because, in our city, developer must obtain a permit not only from the city but also from neighbors to do the job, which involves heavy equipment, excessive dust, noise etc. They actually have to present the plan, how they mitigate the issues, which needs to be approved by the City. In Russia (not US ), one guy paid a few million $$ compensation to the owner of rare religious books - for the dust. Apparently, dust from renovation affected the books
    In the USA we have zoning laws.... and that would be AG zoned which means farming and its dust and by products are normal...... planting dust next to a cornfield is as normal as can bee........and a normal sane responsible person would recognized that

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    While you can't prove cause and effect in Honeybee field trials, you can most certainly prove translocation. Steve and Randi need to look to some of the Italian dust trap experimental designsThey may not be able to prove that the dust killed their bees. However, they can prove that the pesticide went off target. That's a BIG no-no.
    None of that is relevant to my question about why the results of last year's pesticide residue testing of Steve Ellis's and others dying bees in Minnesota has not made public? Makes one wonder if the results proved embarrassing in some ways?

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Coumaphos and fluvalinate? The entire US beeswax supply is contaminated with it.
    We both know that there haven't been any successful Honeybee pesticide poisoning suits here because you can't control for environmental factors (cause and effect) in Honeybee field trials.

    They bring back anything and everything into the hive from anywhere, and then there's the contamination by treatments as well as a host of pest, parasites and pathogens.

    So, while I might not be answering your question, I am giving Steve a heads up on how to prove off-target, environmental pesticide contamination from abraded seed dust.

    The Italians developed the experimental design.

    As we all know, it was very effective.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by melliferal View Post
    ... If the bees leave your property and get poisoned on someone else's land, you can't straight out call that a violation of your rights. ...
    I agree with this, but I was talking about the dust of chemicals, which comes to MY property and contaminates my property, bees whatever. I find it disturbing that people feel it is OK to generate a chemical dust, which is landing on other properties. It is not even about bees - it is a public health issue - that somebody could generate chemical dust and other people should breath it.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Use dust traps on your property. Forget about trying to prove that it's poisoning your bees.

    Prove that poisoned dust is contaminating your property due to a product defect.

    That's actionable.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDiamond View Post
    ... Makes one wonder if the results proved embarrassing in some ways?
    If person is biased (in any direction) the "results" are unimportant because the person already made a decision. There are numerous examples of such behavior at beesource when people disregard scientific data just because they do not feel, it is "proper" data. As a scientist, I stopped my attempt to provide opinion based on "data" (or reason) because people (sorry, nothing personal) are so ignorant and biased... It is just wasting my resources

    If data show poisoning - there are plenty of people at beesource who "knows better" that it was bad data (or some other reason to disregard), they needed the FACT! People, who really interested, will find information. People, who ignorant - will continue to be. All facts are already published and accumulation of data against chemicals on bees will continue (independently from YOUR opinion)
    Серёжа, Sergey

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    ... farming and its dust and by products are normal...... planting dust next to a cornfield is as normal as can bee........and a normal sane responsible person would recognized that
    Chemical dust from regulated chemical? Apparently, you are not exactly right: in March 2013, the US EPA was sued by a coalition of beekeepers ... to sow the seeds which apparently blew clothianidin-laden dust off the seeds ... I got it from Wiki, but you could find more on the Internet.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Where are we going with this discussion? Do you plan to go file a lawsuit against your framer neighbor? I can't control any farmer who farms around me. I can control where my bees are. As beekeepers, the message here is, take care where you keep your bees. If that doesn't do it for you, go sue someone.
    Regards, Barry

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    I agree with this, but I was talking about the dust of chemicals, which comes to MY property and contaminates my property, bees whatever. I find it disturbing that people feel it is OK to generate a chemical dust, which is landing on other properties. It is not even about bees - it is a public health issue - that somebody could generate chemical dust and other people should breath it.
    Okay this makes sense and do know I agree with you. But let's play chess for a moment and think like we're the corn farmer, and someone just accused us of being at fault for this problem. What will our defense be?

    I think I would insist that you prove it was actually my dust which landed on your property that killed your bees, and not in fact something else entirely that they foraged from some other place and brought back to your hives.

    In the US, just these two arguments - yours, and the corn farmer's that I just suggested - would be made through lawyers over the course of around two months. It's your turn to answer: another month. Then if neither of us can agree, you go to court - another month just for the initial hearing. My lawyer uses very standard legal mechanisms to extend the proceedings, and asks for a legal order allowing me to continue to use my chemicals until you've actually completely won the entire case. Your lawyer argues against that request, and in a month another hearing will be made in order for us to make our cases as to why that temporary order should be allowed or not. And it goes on and on.

    I'm not saying you should just completely give up; if you've got the resources, keep the land and fight! But in the meantime - I'd put the bees somewhere safe!
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    You forgot that Steve can sue everyone involved, including the seed drill manufacturer.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    When lawsuits happen, any good lawyer that's earning what you're paying him would include pretty much everyone even theoretically connected in some way with the problem as a defendant in the lawsuit. That would include yeah the chemical manufacturer, the chemical dealer, the individual chemical salesperson by name, the manufacturer of the equipment designed to handle and dispense the chemical or chemically-treated seeds, the dealer of that equipment, the farmer, the owner of the land (if it's not one of the above), and probably the USDA and/or relevant state DA that approved the chemical. The expectation is that some or even most of these defendants will be able to remove themselves from the suit in one way or another, but you put them all in there at the beginning anyway just in case they can't or don't manage to do so.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Tut, tut, tut. Let's not forget who the plaintiff is.

    Steve isn't just any beekeeper.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    He is should he find himself in a courtroom.
    Regards, Barry

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    He won't be alone.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Nor would the other side. Have you ever had to go before a judge and be cross examined and fight for something you felt was right? I have, and I can tell you, NO ONE gets everything they want or think is right.
    Regards, Barry

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Yes. But, I usually let counsel handle the details.

    The farmer is the one who is going to take the fall because his co defendants will demonstrate his negligence.

    He is the one who will be alone and just a farmer.

    However, Steve needs to get his evidence in order first. If uses dust traps, etc. . He can win. If he goes for the bee kills, he'll lose.

  19. #39
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    Jan 2008
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    Alexandria Mn USA
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    50

    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    So your saying that if farmer "John" plants his crop on his side of the fence line and his neighbor "Pete" plants his crop on his side of the fence line. Then "Pete" does some aerial spraying and has drift and kills "John's" Crop
    it's "John's" fault because he should of never planted his crop on his own land knowing that "Pete" might spray.
    I am not saying that I know if the bees crossed the property line and went to the neighbors but there is not much forage in a just planted corn field.

    Randy

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    However, Steve needs to get his evidence in order first. If uses dust traps, etc. . He can win. If he goes for the bee kills, he'll lose.
    Give him a call and talk it over with him. Get back and let us know how it went.
    Regards, Barry

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