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  1. #201
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    Feb 2009
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    Pigeon Falls, WI
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    I have over the last few years found more then just a few studies that show forage plants that grow in fields that were previously used for crops with neonicitinoids had levels of the chemicals in them. Although those levels in some cases are below the LD50 for adult honeybees I believe over time the cumulative presence in the hives will cause issues. Studies have also found levels above the LD50 which obviously will cause colony mortality.

    I would like beekeepers who state they have no issues with having their bees near these treated crop to answer a few questions.

    Are the fields planted with corn rotated with other crops that provide bee forage?

    Are these fields planted by farmers that have up to date equipment or are they still using old planters?

    For sake of discussing and not arguing can those of you who have no issues near corn post what your floral sources are that are near these fields? Also what are your yearly loss percentages? Of those losses do you know for certain what caused them?

    My personal problems appear during planting time and Dandelion bloom. When woodland forage like Cherry, Blackberry, Locust and Basswood are being worked I won't see the "pesticide like kill" at the hives. Sometimes in certain yards it will reappear when the hives start working clover and alfalfa in fields adjacent to the corn fields and sometimes those fields were previously corn.
    Leer Family Honey Farm-Shannon Leer

  2. #202
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    Nov 2009
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    Belfast, Ireland
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    394

    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Where your references? What YOU exactly read? Not interpretation, but real stuff?
    You lost me there!!
    What claim have I made that I did not reference?
    I have been reading the (peer reviewed) literature on bees and pesticides for the past 4 or 5 years as I am a beekeeper and I want to understand the risks.
    I read the stuff with an open mind.

  3. #203
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    OK jonathan, where have you found these references?

    I hope it wasn't from Randy's site alone.

    If you allow him to select references for you, you can be sure that they've been filtered.

  4. #204
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    Nov 2009
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    Belfast, Ireland
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    394

    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    I generally use google scholar plus I read the references people forward to me, and the ones I come across on the forums, and the references cited in the papers I read.
    I have no connection with Randy Oliver but I think he is a good communicator and does not get swayed by hysteria.

    Have you checked out who is behind that moraybeedinosaurs site you like to link to?

  5. #205
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    jonathan:

    "The issue is whether this happens under field conditions and if it does, how frequent an event is that. Other than the planter dust problem, which is clearly a serious issue to address, the evidence for problems under field conditions is scant to say the least."

    I think that the above statement ignores studies like the following:

    >
    Hazards of pesticides to bees – 10th International Symposium of the ICP-Bee Protection Group
    118 Julius-Kühn-Archiv 423, 2009
    Bee poisoning incidents in Germany in spring 2008 caused by abrasion of active
    substance from treated seeds during sowing of maize
    Pistorius, J.1*, Bischoff, G.2, Heimbach, U.1, Stähler, M.2
    Julius Kühn-Institut:
    1 Institute for Plant Protection in Field Crops and Grassland,
    2 Institute for Ecological Chemistry, Plant Analysis and Stored Products Protection
    *Tel.: +49 531 299 4525; Fax: +49 531 299 3008. E-mail: jens.pistorius@jki.bund.de
    Abstract
    In spring 2008 a high number of bee poisoning incidents was recorded during sowing of maize in the Upper Rhine valley and in South Bavaria near Passau. More than 11.500 honey bee colonies from about 700 beekeepers in the Upper Rhine valley showed symptoms of insecticide poisoning. The reason for the poisoning was the abrasion of dust from maize seeds treated with the insecticide Poncho Pro (a.s. clothianidin) during the sowing process and blowing out of this dust containing the active substance into the environment with pneumatic sowing machines, resulting in contamination of nectar and pollen. The poisonings occurred in areas in southern Germany in which an eradication program for the quarantine pest Diabrotica virgifera virgifera was active and where clothianidin was used at a high rate (125 g a.s. /ha) on a large scale. An exceptionally high amount of dust of up to 80 g per 100.000 kernels of maize was detected in some of the maize seed batches. The chemical analysis of dust, plant samples, bee samples, fresh pollen and bee bread confirmed the poisoning by clothianidin originating from treated maize seeds. No correlation with any bee
    pathogens was detected.
    <

    I wouldn't call bee kills on a national scale 'scant evidence'. There's more out there, but why should I bother if you can find them yourself?

    There's an interesting dichotomy between the hysterical and the revisionists. It's panic vs denial.

    But, we don't need to keep revisiting that.

    OK, I give up. Who is behind the moraybeedinosaurs site (I've never visited) that I pulled links from?

  6. #206
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Cleveland, OH, USA
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    475

    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    The German study is very, very interesting but I would prefer a couple more studies like it which reach the same conclusions. There's a reason scientists don't like to refer to individual studies as "definitive".

    These products are in widespread use in the US and there are several universities and laboratories in this country which have done exceptional research on honey bees. It wouldn't surprise me if a similar study was underway here even now.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  7. #207
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    melliferal:

    We can easily find studies that go either way. Studies that show neonic related beekills, and others that show high concentrations of neonics and the bees are fine.

    You can pick a side, and find the studies to support your desired conclusions.

    That's why I feel that the environmental contamination issue is more meaningful. You don't want pesticides that should remain on seeds showing up in other places.

    Translocation (contamination) isn't as subjective as cause and effect (beekills).

    The off-target effects are being found consistently, not the bee kills.
    Last edited by WLC; 05-26-2013 at 08:36 PM.

  8. #208
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    Aug 2010
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    Cleveland, OH, USA
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    475

    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    I definitely agree with that. Regardless of the bee question, as a principle pesticides really should be staying where they're intended to be used and not being blown/dusted/sprayed all over the back nine besides.
    Beeless since 2012; coming back in 2014. Suffering from apicultural withdrawal!

  9. #209
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    ...I want to understand the risks.
    I read the stuff with an open mind.
    Great, just tell us WHAT actually you read? References please.
    Last edited by Barry; 05-27-2013 at 03:53 PM. Reason: personal
    Серёжа, Sergey

  10. #210
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    What I've found to be of interest is that there may be evidence for detoxification of neonics in both hives and bees hidden in the studies. Neonic contamination levels don't just vary widely. A few studies show that neonic contamination drops in both bees and bee bread after a short period of time (days).

    It's very possible that both the bees and the hive microbes are breaking down the neonics. This likely varies by hive and by apiary.

    So, that's a possible explanaition for the inconsistency of the bee kills.

    The other possibility is that other pesticide formulations may be interacting with the neonics or detoxification. So, bee kills can appear to occur at widely different contamination levels.

    While developing Honeybees with a greater ability to detoxify neonics is challenging, I don't think that finding microbes in hives that can detoxify neonics is as difficult.

    I've recently added some Honey to a syrup/milk culture media, and had it ferment rather easily. So, it could be a matter of taking beebread from an apparently neonic resistant hive, inoculating growth media with the beebread, and feeding it to the bees.

    It could be a way of spreading neonic resistance via detoxifying microbes.

    In other words, I don't feel that beekeepers are completely defenseless if they can harness natural pesticide detoxification.

  11. #211
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    Apr 2011
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    Sacramento, Calif. USA
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    272

    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    No one is in any doubt that neonicotinoids can kill bees.
    The issue is whether this happens under field conditions and if it does, how frequent an event is that.
    The most concentrated area of neonic usage in the USA is the upper Midwestern corn belt. Although there are many beekeeper associations in these corn belt states, when I visit their websites (e.g. http://eastcentraliowabeekeepers.blogspot.com/) I usually don't find any mention about planter dust kills. So I presume kills are rare and nearly always avoidable as GMCharlie has pointed out if the beekeeper bothers to communicate with local farmers at planting time. And new technologies to reduce planter dust up to 90% are coming soon. Thus a ban on neonics in the corn belt states would not reduce annual colony loss statistics in any significant way while it would create a headache for the corn farmers as they would have to go back to the old fashion methods of frequent field scouting and use of foliar and soil sprays to control corn pests.

  12. #212
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    Millbury, MA, USA
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Thus a ban on neonics in the corn belt states would not reduce annual colony loss statistics in any significant way while it would create a headache for the corn farmers as they would have to go back to the old fashion methods of frequent field scouting and use of foliar and soil sprays to control corn pests.
    And none of us want a return to the bee kills from an aerial error. No hives survive from those. I've seen 50-60 hives wiped out in a couple seconds. I don't like any insecticide with bees but the neonics seem much better than the organophosphates.

  13. #213
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    I doubt that there will ever be a U.S. wide ban on neonic seeds like the one in Europe.

    We don't 'operate' in the same way.

    Although, it may be possible that there will be a few localized bans. But, that's it.

    It's far more likely that there will be some kind of a 'fix'.

  14. #214
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    The other possibility is that other pesticide formulations may be interacting with the neonics or detoxification. So, bee kills can appear to occur at widely different contamination levels.
    I am very concerned about the fungicides and their interaction will several pesticides. It seems to me they make some much more lethal. I wish there were more studies on that interaction and bee death.

  15. #215
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by camero7 View Post
    I am very concerned about the fungicides and their interaction will several pesticides. It seems to me they make some much more lethal. I wish there were more studies on that interaction and bee death.
    Is there any crop in particular that you are thinking about? Perhaps apples... maybe cranberries?

    In the southern blueberries, fungicides seem to come at almost any time.... insecticides seem to be much more timed. The possibility of they both being present in concentration is pretty good..... course it may not matter, but I would hope that at least some of these potential interactions have been looked at.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  16. #216
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    I refused to return to an apple orchard this spring because my bees came off them in such terrible shape. Not sure what the cause was but a couple died and the remainder took all summer to recover. My bees came off the blueberries that I pollinated this spring in pretty good shape. Bees were a little ragged coming off cran last year. Just doing a couple small bogs this year. I am shifting away from pollination. Too much work for a small operator who is not mechanized for the return. I do charge much more than most for bees.

  17. #217
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    2,646

    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    excellent thinking Camero........ seed coating are much better than the arial spraying...

    FYI it may not be fungicides, but herbicides also... I have Salvage yard 1/2 mile away.. I put some bees there and could not keep a queen alive for more than a week..... they sprayed herbicides daily (not on the hives but withing 100 yards).... While my bees in my yard seem to not have any issues...... and I know they forage there also... guessing they are not picking up overspray and grooming...

  18. #218
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Do you know what the herbicide was?

  19. #219
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    Aug 2012
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    southport, connecticut, usa
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    6

    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    what i dont understand are beekeepers that still go around pollinating crops that the farmers spray, and that are GMO, and then keep doing the same thing after they have experienced CCD. I think it may be they are just used to what they are doing, but if i were them i would stop and try to change my ways. i dont think a ban will do any good, compared to the bee keepers just stop pollinating mono crop farms.

  20. #220
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: Large pesticide bee-kill in minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by drewbs View Post
    what i dont understand are beekeepers that still go around pollinating crops that the farmers spray, and that are GMO, and then keep doing the same thing after they have experienced CCD.
    Yeah pretty stupid guys... huh.

    i dont think a ban will do any good, compared to the bee keepers just stop pollinating mono crop farms.
    Planning on simplifying you diet ... huh?
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

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