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  1. #81
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    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    5,662

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    An occasional hamburger from McD's will not kill you but living on them will.
    Really? And if you don't eat hamburgers from McDonalds you will never die? Really?

    No matter what you eat, you will die! And no matter what your bees eat, they also will die.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    It is too obvious.
    Certainly ....
    -- Victor Hugo -- "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,308

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Acebird:

    Look at it this way, I've tried to avoid feeding, but my bees weren't thriving.
    So, while there's forage available, there isn't enough of it at the right time.

    I'm compelled to feed.

    Now if I can successfully turn table sugar into nutritionally complete LAB that can be conumed by bees...

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,268

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    i just want to make sure that my queens don't die of old age through the winter months (short on vitellogenin?).

    wlc, i found the vasquez paper, but it was a little bit above my pay grade.

    can you point me to any other useful reading regarding probiotics?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #84
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    for those who may have missed it, some of this was kicked around here:

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ulations-Input
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,308

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    squarepeg:

    I take probiotics myself. So, that's a general nutritional issue

    I would simply google lactic acid bacteria and bees to get a good feel for how LAB and Honeybee nutrition are related.

    There's a bunch of articles you can find by doing that.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,268

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    can do.

    what do you think of the drs. latshaw's work?
    Last edited by squarepeg; 05-10-2013 at 07:49 AM. Reason: punctuation police
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    26,153

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    squarepeg:

    I take probiotics myself. So, that's a general nutritional issue
    Why? Poor nutrition? Or hedging your bets, so to say.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  8. #88
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,308

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    sqkcrk:

    I took antibiotics that wiped out my good gut flora, and let some bad stuff in, C. difficile.

    I do know why antibiotics can be bad for bees.

  9. #89
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I'm only familiar with the II instrument of Lathshaw. Don't know much about his views on bee nutrition.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    sqkcrk:

    I took antibiotics that wiped out my good gut flora, and let some bad stuff in, C. difficile.

    I do know why antibiotics can be bad for bees.
    I see. So, after a while you will stop taking the probiotics?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  11. #91
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I'll see my gastroenterologist shortly.

    I must be seeing 4 specialists and an oral surgeon within the space of 6 months.

    The probiotics have been very helpful. So has a variety of cheeses, as strange as it sounds.

  12. #92
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    320

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I've been adding half a capsule of Solaray Multidophilis 12 (available on Amazon) to my 5 lb. sugar syrup for over 2 years and have never seen a downside. I don't add it to every batch, but particularly if I'm feeding in August leading to the production of winter bees, and also maybe every 3rd or 4th batch otherwise. My bees seem to come out of winter very healthy and I haven't lost a hive yet (I'm chemical free). I'm just a hobbyist, so take it for what it is worth. This Feb. I started adding half a capsule of Primal Defense Ultra Probiotic Formula (also Amazon) because it contains some different stains, particularly some soil organisms. I've seen the bees hang out on my compost heap and my guess is they are seeking their own version of probiotics. From my research, there are some strains specific to bees but many others that seem to be universal in animals including humans. In humans, microbes in the gut account for 90% of our immune system. There are many cultures of probiotics that don't need milk to thrive. There is a water kefir, for example, and lactofermentation of vegetables (kimchee, pickles, sauerkraut) don't involve milk. I think my bees consume the syrup before the probiotics have a chance to ferment the syrup, but if they don't, the lactofermentation would bring the pH down to closer to honey pH, so even that would probably be a good thing.
    Last edited by thenance007; 05-10-2013 at 08:50 AM.

  13. #93
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I'm only familiar with the II instrument of Lathshaw. Don't know much about his views on bee nutrition.
    if you have time, review the thread i linked a few posts back.

    there's a little info on the latshaw website as well.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #94
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    tn007:

    I'm basically going to add the brand of probitic capsules that I use.

    I think that adding milk will give the LAB enough nutrients to begin growing and dividing again.

    There's a trick to this: how much sugar do I want to remain in the live culture while still having enough balanced nutrients in the form of LAB mass?

    I'm going to heat up a gallon of 1:1, add a quart of milk, and then add a capsule or two (or three) of jarro-dophilus.

    What I can then do is take samples, spin them down in a centrifuge, and see how much wet weight of bacteria (or whatever is spinning down) I end up with over the coarse of a few days until the culture reaches a plateau. I can also measure the density of the resulting culture to approximate how much sugar is being consumed (I have to use my biofuel testing equipment/alcoholometer).

    After all, fermentation is fermaentation.

    But it's lactic acid, and not alcohol.

    sp:

    I still don't know what you mean by Lathshaw's work. throw me a bone and give me a hint.
    Last edited by WLC; 05-10-2013 at 11:55 AM.

  15. #95
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    i am wondering what your impression is of his commercially available feed supplement.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #96
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I only use sugar. Although I have been known to use other food grade products (they're not treatments, they're food).

    The short answer, I don't know.

    My advice would be to listen to what the commercial guys are using.

  17. #97
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    8,994

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I've tried to avoid feeding, but my bees weren't thriving.
    So, while there's forage available, there isn't enough of it at the right time.
    You know that your bees are nutritionally starved?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #98
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    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,308

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    And, they're being poisoned by my own city government, and my neighbors.

    There have been a number of complaints by urban beekepers regarding the 'lack of forage' for an increasing number of urban hives.

    The folks in Dallas/Forth Worth know what I'm refering to.

    Anvil 10-10 kills bees.

    I have to strengthen my hives to withstand the chemical assault.

    That's why I'm adjusting my feeding program.

    It's as if I'm in farmland, even though I have one of the largest urban parks in terms of acreage nearby.

    The natural feed philosophy won't work here.

  19. #99
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,160

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    My advice would be to listen to what the commercial guys are using.
    Well said.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  20. #100
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    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,268

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Well said.
    not surprised.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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