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  1. #61
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Let me run this up the flag pole and see if anyone salutes.

    So, while we don't want to make ethanol biofuel, we might want to make up some cheap media that can convert HFCS, and some equally cheap nutrients, into a whole lot of nutritionally balanced (let's say so for the sake of argument) liquid probiotic culture.

    Or, am I just being too much of a Biologist?
    Well the idea of a balanced liquid feed that would satisfy both the carb and protein needs of a hive in a liquid form that can be pumped is sort of the "holy grail" that has never been
    perfected. The Tucson bee diet made some such claims but it sounds like there were some dispensing and solubility problems there. My guess is the folks over at NutraBee have been working overtime in the lab on just such a product.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  2. #62
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Jim:

    I think that it wouldn't be such a big deal for beekeepers that make up their own sugar syrup to add a few nutrients and the contents of a Jarro-Dophilus EPS capsule (or two) to the mix before filling a hive feeder.

    For example, HFCS is a cheap carbon source. The nutrient requirements of probiotic bacteria are known. The dry probiotic capsules are available at health food stores.

    Why would we need a middle man if we can make up our own sugar/sub feed?

    Do you see where I'm going on this?

    It would be a 'living liquid culture feed'.

  3. #63
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    bee yogart? sounds interesting.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  4. #64
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Milk, water, sugar, and a few Jaorro-Dophillus EPS capsules.

    Now if I could only gather up the courage to try it out.

    My bees seem to be consuming less sugar syrup as of late. Pollen is coming in.

    Soo...

    Maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal if I 'yogurted up' the 1 gallon BeePro feeder?

  5. #65
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    ...HFCS, add probiotics, AND starter nutrients? ...There's '24 hour' yeasts that can convert sugar to alcohol very quickly because of the added nutrients....
    Well, in aerobic condition, yeasts more likely produce a vinegar, not ethanol. Are you serious about "Biology"? I am not sure, which probiotics? For human or for the bees? Bees "probiotics" would be entirely different from the human. It seems to me stupid idea to use human probiotics for bees. I think, bee's "probiotic" is already invented - it's bees bread with fermented pollen, perfect probiotic. Since, nectar on its way to the honey also fermented, it is a probiotic also!
    Серёжа, Sergey

  6. #66
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post

    Maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal if I 'yogurted up' the 1 gallon BeePro feeder?
    You sound like a frustrated "Keith Jarrett".....
    Give it a try.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  7. #67
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    The probiotic organisms turn sugar and some milk into a balanced nutrients source. The lactic acid bacteria (LAB) themselves. Get it?

    You automatically pasteurize the sugar and milk by heating it well about 65 degrees celsius, so when you add the sugar it dissolves easily. Once cooled, add sufficient LAB to quickly dominate the culture medium thereby crowding out competitors.

    I would be interested in killing two birds with one stone. Feeding my bees both a sugar source and 'sub' at the same time.

    The bees don't care if their nutrient source is from LAB meant for humans. HFCS, Soy, etc. is meant for humans too.

    As long as it's all food grade folks.

  8. #68
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    Dec 2006
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    Amador County, Calif
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    3,121

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    You sound like a frustrated "Keith Jarrett.
    lol.... It's easy to soar with the eagles when your surrounded by tukeys.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  9. #69
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    Mar 2012
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    Calhoun Co, Texas, USA
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    The bees don't care if their nutrient source is from LAB meant for humans. HFCS, Soy, etc. is meant for humans too.
    Well, without jumping on my soapbox about anything else in there, I must comment that while the bees may not have developed enough ganglia to "care" ... there is certainly a possibility that the strain(s) of bacteria one would purchase, selected for compatibility with the human digestive system, would be incompatible with, or even (gasp) directly attack some portions of the honey bees' digestive tracts...definitely an area where further experimentation would be required.

  10. #70
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I think that Keith is definitely onto something. Especially after having read the recent Vasquez paper.

    I'm simply trying to see if LAB can be coaxed into turning table sugar into more valuable nutrients by adding some milk as a starter.

    Since NYC has sprayed Anvil 10-10 for West Nile Virus last September, I get the uneasy feeling that I'm going to be ordering new bees for next spring regardless.

    Do I dare push the LAB/sugar syrup envelope to the breaking point?

    If the bees don't like it, I'll have to wash out the feeders.

    If they do take it as a feed, what could the terrible consequences be for such an act?

    Non vegan bees?

    Aaaaah!

  11. #71
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    Jan 2009
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    Cookeville, TN, USA
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Well the idea of a balanced liquid feed that would satisfy both the carb and protein needs of a hive in a liquid form that can be pumped is sort of the "holy grail" that has never been
    perfected. The Tucson bee diet made some such claims but it sounds like there were some dispensing and solubility problems there. My guess is the folks over at NutraBee have been working overtime in the lab on just such a product.
    It works fine in 2-1 syrup. It looks kind of nasty, but the bees seem to find it very palatable once they start using it. It's a good way to get sub into the hive when SHB are a problem. Actually into the bees since they eat it instead of carrying it in their pollen baskets and storing it for later.

  12. #72
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    Dec 2008
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    On a tangent, has anyone tested the effect of drought, etc. on the amino acid content of pollen? For example, does a plant that normal produces a well balanced pollen, produce an unbalance pollen when stressed by drought?

    If so, it would explain alot of the problems from last year.

    Crazy Roland

  13. #73
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    Cookeville, TN, USA
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    That's a good point. But as previously mentioned bees will forage whatever they can find when the good stuff isn't available - all the way down to sawdust. I'm convinced that my losses were cause by malnutrition last summer - by me not feeding them when I should have. I'm not planning to repeat that performance this year.

  14. #74
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Well the idea of a balanced liquid feed that would satisfy both the carb and protein needs of a hive in a liquid form that can be pumped is sort of the "holy grail" that has never been
    perfected.
    When you get it right you will be able bottle it and sell it as bee bread, a mixture of honey and pollen from a natural source.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  15. #75
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Acebird:

    I'm not interested in selling a product.

    It's more along the lines of rethinking bee nutrition.

    Many beekeepers are compelled to feed syrup and other supplements.

    This practice is often criticized for various reasons, especially the use of HFCS.

    Since we are mixing the stuff up anyhow, why not throw a little lactic acid fermentation into the mix?

    I've got about three gallons of 1:1 syrup left over, and it looks like the girls are taking less sugar syrup. They've averaged about a quart a day, but it has slowed down to less than a pint.

    I don't want to order up sub, but I would like to improve on the nutritional quality of my feed.

    I already have the syrup and the LAB capsules. All that I need is a little milk.

    So, I think I'll spend Saturday morning making up some BeeGurt.

    Most importantly, I have had problems in the past with leftover syrup going bad.

    I think that the lactic acid produced by the LAB should help stop mold growing in my leftover syrup.

  16. #76
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Since we are mixing the stuff up anyhow, why not throw a little lactic acid fermentation into the mix?

    .
    What is lactic acid fermentation?

    When I think of fermentation, I always think of ethanol (old wine maker). I still remember the various pathways of anaerobic and aerobic respiration, but LAF (lactic acid fermentaion) is not something I remember.

    Is your moldy syrup 1:1? If so - put a touch of vinegar in there... (Acetic Acid)...
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  17. #77
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    Aug 2012
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    Barrie, Ontario, Canada
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    209

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    What is lactic acid fermentation?
    Malolactic fermentation. Its the conversion of malic acid to lactic acid. Wine, mead, and cider maker use it in bulk aging to take off the rough edges and give the end product a better mouth feel. Its usually performed by Lactobacillus sp. bacteria. I'm not sure if you still make wine, but its part of what improves wine during aging.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  18. #78
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    Mar 2011
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    It's more along the lines of rethinking bee nutrition.
    I find the word nutrition to have different meanings depending on the source of who is using the word.
    All your fast food vendors use the word nutrition. An occasional hamburger from McD's will not kill you but living on them will. The worker bee goes out and collects nectar and pollen and makes a food that will not spoil for many years. Of course mankind can make a substitute for this food but he can't make it better. The idea that a sub is better is laughable. If you think that it is or ever could be than bring a hive in the lab. Never let the bees forage on flowers and feed the colony a sub of your choosing and start the clock. How long will that colony lasts?

    Rethinking bee nutrition does not take a lot of effort. It is too obvious.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #79
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    While yeast will make ethanol, Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB) will make, well, lactic acid.

    You can say that it's how yeast or LAB can crowd out competing microbes by making a product that other organisms can't tolerate.

    It's a good thing that we can tolerate alcohol and lactic acid (up to a point).

    If you like yogurt or certain cheeses, you can appreciate lactic acid fermentation.

    Bees have LAB in their gut, and lactic acid fermentation is needed to make bee bread from pollen.

    So, using LAB in bee nutrition isn't all that out of the ordinary.

    That's the probiotic view.

  20. #80
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    May 2009
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by zhiv9 View Post
    Malolactic fermentation. Its the conversion of malic acid to lactic acid. Wine, mead, and cider maker use it in bulk aging to take off the rough edges and give the end product a better mouth feel. Its usually performed by Lactobacillus sp. bacteria. I'm not sure if you still make wine, but its part of what improves wine during aging.
    Ahh yes, I am familiar with Malolactic Fermentation - fairly expensive little packets of bacteria. I make a wine called a Norton - it benefits significantly from MF.
    So LAF is the same..... nice to know.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

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