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rethinking bee nutrition

54K views 315 replies 37 participants last post by  WLC 
#1 ·
i have mentioned in several posts that i was convinced that bees feeding on real honey would have a much better chance of staying healthy as compared to those feeding on syrup.

my thinking was that they would be getting the vital nutrients in real honey (not present in syrup) that are necessary for their immune systems to function optimally.

now i'm not so sure about that.

after revisiting randy oliver's papers on bee nutrition, i have come to understand that those vital nutrients for longevity and immunity come primarily from pollen.

oliver does a better job than i ever could explaining what vitellogenin is and the role it plays in bee health and wintering longevity:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/ (this is part one of a four part series)

i believe i have found a likely explanation as to why i had 5 of 18 hives suffer queen failure over this past winter. it may be that the natural forage that was available here late last year didn't have quite enough nutritional quality.

this may explain why those who supplement with protein patties in the fall are having better wintering success.

this brings me to think like it's not bad to 'top off' or 'bring up to wintering weight' using syrup late in the year, fearing that the bees will have less immunity to pathogens if they are using some stored syrup for fuel.

i have been putting a little dry pollen substitute out in the late winter for the bees to add to the natural pollen that they bring in. it may be a good idea for me to put some of that out in late summer as well to augment the natural flow as they get into rearing those last rounds of bees for overwintering.
 
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#85 ·
squarepeg:

I take probiotics myself. So, that's a general nutritional issue

I would simply google lactic acid bacteria and bees to get a good feel for how LAB and Honeybee nutrition are related.

There's a bunch of articles you can find by doing that.
 
#92 · (Edited)
I've been adding half a capsule of Solaray Multidophilis 12 (available on Amazon) to my 5 lb. sugar syrup for over 2 years and have never seen a downside. I don't add it to every batch, but particularly if I'm feeding in August leading to the production of winter bees, and also maybe every 3rd or 4th batch otherwise. My bees seem to come out of winter very healthy and I haven't lost a hive yet (I'm chemical free). I'm just a hobbyist, so take it for what it is worth. This Feb. I started adding half a capsule of Primal Defense Ultra Probiotic Formula (also Amazon) because it contains some different stains, particularly some soil organisms. I've seen the bees hang out on my compost heap and my guess is they are seeking their own version of probiotics. From my research, there are some strains specific to bees but many others that seem to be universal in animals including humans. In humans, microbes in the gut account for 90% of our immune system. There are many cultures of probiotics that don't need milk to thrive. There is a water kefir, for example, and lactofermentation of vegetables (kimchee, pickles, sauerkraut) don't involve milk. I think my bees consume the syrup before the probiotics have a chance to ferment the syrup, but if they don't, the lactofermentation would bring the pH down to closer to honey pH, so even that would probably be a good thing.
 
#94 · (Edited)
tn007:

I'm basically going to add the brand of probitic capsules that I use.

I think that adding milk will give the LAB enough nutrients to begin growing and dividing again.

There's a trick to this: how much sugar do I want to remain in the live culture while still having enough balanced nutrients in the form of LAB mass?

I'm going to heat up a gallon of 1:1, add a quart of milk, and then add a capsule or two (or three) of jarro-dophilus.

What I can then do is take samples, spin them down in a centrifuge, and see how much wet weight of bacteria (or whatever is spinning down) I end up with over the coarse of a few days until the culture reaches a plateau. I can also measure the density of the resulting culture to approximate how much sugar is being consumed (I have to use my biofuel testing equipment/alcoholometer).

After all, fermentation is fermaentation.

But it's lactic acid, and not alcohol.

sp:

I still don't know what you mean by Lathshaw's work. throw me a bone and give me a hint.
 
#98 ·
And, they're being poisoned by my own city government, and my neighbors.

There have been a number of complaints by urban beekepers regarding the 'lack of forage' for an increasing number of urban hives.

The folks in Dallas/Forth Worth know what I'm refering to.

Anvil 10-10 kills bees.

I have to strengthen my hives to withstand the chemical assault.

That's why I'm adjusting my feeding program.

It's as if I'm in farmland, even though I have one of the largest urban parks in terms of acreage nearby.

The natural feed philosophy won't work here.
 
#111 ·
And, they're being poisoned by my own city government, and my neighbors.
...
Anvil 10-10 kills bees.

I have to strengthen my hives to withstand the chemical assault.
This does not sound like nutrition at all. It sounds like same old chemical solutions to chemical caused problems.

Feeding substitutes will propagate a weaker bee not a stronger bee. It the short term you will smile but what do you expect in the long term? I think in a relatively short time we will be welcoming honey from China because the American honey producers are following the same path as the American framer did depending on chemical solutions to chemical created problems.
 
#101 ·
For the sake of argument, let's assume that NutraBee from Keith Jarrett is the best. Since us sideliners arent big enough to buy by the truck load and therefore can't get it, what would be second best? Best choice is not an option if they won't sell to you. Keith, would you be willing to sell your probiotic mix similar to Joe Lathshaw? What would you recommend to use to improve bee nutrition if you couldn't use NutraBee?

Wisnewbee
Honey Luv Farm
 
#102 ·
First of all, under conditions of duress (no, not me, the bees). First, a sugar source. Second anything that could conceivably thought of as a pollen substitute or nutrient source.

However, it''s usually whatever is cheapest by the pound.

Disclaimer: I had no idea that Keith was "that Keith". :)

Of course, I'm going to use Mann Lake because of the free shipping with orders of over $100.

Yes. I do buy stuff that I don't really need because I can go between two sites and do the math without taking my shoes and socks off.

Unfortunately, I'm on a fermentation 'riff' right now.

But, price is always the issue.

I doubt that Keith can lower his margins.

I can't even get the cheap stuff to price out for less.

But, home fermentation...

Hmmm...
 
#103 ·
you may be onto something there wlc.

and keith, the last thing i want to be is a pita.

i started the thread because i am realizing that leaving them enough honey, even 'real' honey, may not be enough.

the best science i have available is telling me that for overwintering bees, the nutritional source for longevity and immunity to pathogens which allows the storage of vitellogenin (the 'fountain of youth' randy oliver describes it), is in the pollen.

the big guys whose livelhoods are at stake have experienced less overwintering losses and stronger colonies in the spring if they supplement with protein patties, and the smart money is on nutrabee.

we're not stupid keith, and nobody expects you to reveal the secrets that you have invested your life and treasure to aquire. hearty congratulations to you for having done it!

but for the sake of this thread, and to advance the understanding of those of us who care deeply about beekeeping husbandry, let me ask you this way:

what would you consider the five most important things to know when it comes to bee nutrition as it relates to overwintering and resistance to pathogens? helping us to understand the what, when, and why of feeding pollen sub would be a valuable contribution to the forum.
 
#104 ·
sp:

You don't need to ask Keith that one.

Secondly, as a Biologist, I can tell you right now that he has his hand on the pulse of bee nutrition. He "sees things'.

I can tell by what he's saying.

Thirdly, can we lay off of this vg canard? Please already. The winter caste has alot. Nurse bees have less. Foragers have the least.

It's numbers. Not vg.
 
#105 ·
sp:

You don't need to ask Keith that one.

why would you say that wlc? i think it's a great question.

Secondly, as a Biologist, I can tell you right now that he has his hand on the pulse of bee nutrition. He "sees things'.

that much is obvious, even for us non-biologists

I can tell by what he's saying.

most of what keith has said is that his product is superior to everybody elses, naturally. i was inviting him to help the discussion along and maybe we non-biologists can learn something

Thirdly, can we lay off of this vg canard? Please already. The winter caste has alot. Nurse bees have less. Foragers have the least.

canard? explain.

It's numbers. Not vg.

numbers? i was under the impression it had something to do with the difference in the jelly being fed to the fall brood preparing them for overwintering.

tell you what wlc, why don't we let keith answer for himself if he is willing?
 
#110 ·
Beer!

Now we're getting somewhere.

Sergey,

I should have told you that I taught microbiology in my younger days. Yes, we did all kinds of fermentaiton demos.

My main point here is that beekeepers can use fermaentation to their advantage.

There's no need to worry about causing any lasting changes in the symbiotic bacteria found in the bee gut. They can takr care of themselves.

I'm not going to mention how organic acids, like lactic acid, have been used in the past to treat for Varroa.

Nor, will I mention how Crisco can be converted to FAEEs that resemble brood pheromone.

I know more than I'm letting on. :)
 
#112 ·
I don't entirely disagree. It's a treadmill.

I would much prefer that I could feed back frames of honey and pollen stores.

But that's not what's happening in my case.

I'm feeding to build up numbers so they can go out and forage more successfully.

The flow is developing, and I'd say that the bees are behind this year as is the flow.

Much of the time, I find myself thinking of these bees as livestock. I need to keep an eye on them and take care of any needs as they arise.

At other times, they seem to take care of themselves.

So, while I like the philosophy, I usually take care of 'logistics'.

I wouldn't describe feeding syrup as causing the collapse of beekeeping. :)
 
#114 ·
awesome keith, i know that you are very busy. :)

the discussion i hoped to initiate here is based on the following assumptions:

1. successful overwintering has a lot to do with the nutrition that is available during the fall build-up of the long-lived bees. my understanding is that the fall brood is fed jelly that is extra rich and this promotes increased vitillogenin stores. it's this vitellogenin that promotes longevity and stronger immunity against pathogens. the ability make this special jelly depends on having adequate protein which comes from pollen.

2. i was under the impression that just leaving stores of real honey as opposed to leaving stored syrup would provide the nutritional basis for immunity and longevity. losing 5 of 18 colonies last winter to what boiled down to the queens not living long enough has me rethinking that. reading what randy oliver has written on bee nutrition leads me to want to understand this better.

3. professional beekeepers report better overwintering when using protien supplements in the fall. walt wright reports successful overwintering when he provides a box at the bottom of the stack in which the bees fill with bee bread made from pollen available in the spring. i have a lot of natural forage here, but the variety is much less in the fall, and while bees generally overwinter well here i wonder if it could be improved with the addition of a supplemental source of protein.

please keith, tell me if you see any flaws in these assumptions. i suppose it's all been addressed in older threads, but for the sake of those of us who need a little more, give us a little practical advice about the use of protein supplements.

what conditions in the hive signal when the time is right to apply it?
are any special precautions necessary for those in areas with small hive beetles?
how to you determine how much to give?
do you use a feeding rim or just squish it in on top?

i'm sure that like with all things beekeeping, some of the considerations will have to be qualified with 'it depends'. my intent is to advance the conversation and understanding on this topic, and i know that you have a lot to offer in that regard. many thanks. :)
 
#127 ·
what conditions in the hive signal when the time is right to apply it?
are any special precautions necessary for those in areas with small hive beetles?
how to you determine how much to give?
do you use a feeding rim or just squish it in on top?
SP, we run off the CALENDAR, we start in aug- nov you see SP the queen runs off of day light hours so after the middle of June( longest day of the year) she starts slowing down, it is very difficult to run against mother nature. Also, having a premium sub really helps because you really have a short window to brood up, remember a "full" brood round takes a month so when counting you ONLY really have aug-sept-oct for good brooding. shoot me with some more questions.:)
 
#117 ·
I'm not clear why so much fuss is being made about proxies like vitellogenin levels.

Typically, beekeepers can't measure it anyway.

Beekeepers simply need to observe what's happening outside the hive, and they can also directly gauge the nutritional status of the hive by taking quick inventories of the types of frames that they have in the hive.

It's productivity goals and nutritional status that guide the response of beekeepers.

What do you want from your hives?
 
#119 ·
How can I put this...

a better proxy for beekeepers would be hive weight over time.

It's direct, it's feasible, and it's also a better indicator of nutritional status.

You can have plenty of fat/long-lived bees when all that you really needed was a queen that could lay up a storm before the flow.

Do you know of any beekeepers that actually measure vg?

However, there were a few here on Beesource who weigh hives.
 
#120 ·
According to Randy Oliver's research, the main point about fall nutrition is that winter bees store much more protein internally than summer bees, and thus require more protein during development. The amount of pollen in the hive in January is much less significant than the amount in the hive in late September (at least for this area) as the bees cannot reach outside the cluster in January when they start raising brood for the spring buildup. Might be Feb before they start, depending in the winter, but in any case, they must provided the protein for making royal jelly from their internal stores for the first round of brood, and likely cannot get to much pollen.

This is why they starve out in late winter when they have adequate honey or syrup -- lack of protein causes the nurse bees to die from protein loss, the cluster shrinks too much, and they freeze. Nothing can be done in late winter, they cannot leave the cluster to feed on anything, so the hive fails in the midst of what appears to be adequate supplies of stores.

The solution according to Randy Oliver, is to feed a protein patty during winter bee brood rearing. Around here that is September, usually fairly early in the month when it's still warm, or late August. By late September there tyipcally is very little brood in the hive. I fed mine this year and both hives came out booming in the spring, no signs of slow buildup or excessive bee loss in spite of a series of repeated cold snaps that slowed everything down.

Spring pollen is too late -- any hive without adequate protein is already dead by the time the bees can collect significant amounts.

If you have small hive beetle problems, feed in small amounts on top of the brood nest, no more than the bees can use or store in a couple days. They do pack it away just like pollen.

A little extra work, with the reward of having a healthy, growing hive in March.

Peter
 
#135 ·
is it something personal?


It's the nutrient stores and winter cluster size that are important.

good point wlc, i need to pay more attention to the pollen stores in my hives.

You can't prove cause and effect in field trials for Honeybees. Scientifically, you have no control of all of the other possible environmental variables. In short, we don't know why your queen(s) died. It's impossible to prove.

Vg is being used as a proxy for the nutritional status of hives, when we can see that directly upon inspection.

seeing lots of pollen in a hive is one thing, but how would one know if there is good varitel balance there.

It's pointless to blame vg.

You might as well blame viruses. You can't see them either.

yes, but if you buy into the tenant that vg promotes natural immunity the viruses may be less of an issue.
 
#122 ·
jim, thanks again for pointing me to keith's video, and yes it not only answered some of my questions but it gave me a glimpse into another realm of beekeeping that is very different than the one i find myself in, (plus i now understand the joke behind the 'blue hives' :) )

what it looks like is keith has 1000 colonies in one yard that are kept brooding all winter in order to be strong in february for almonds. this is very different than the winter shut down that is typical of what colonies around here do.

peter, thanks for your reply. your point is exactly the one that i wanted to explore in this thread. nice to know that you got the outcome you were trying to get. can you share what type of supplement you used?

wlc, it's about overwintering. i am one who does weigh the hives in late fall. stores were not an issue for my bees as much as queen longevity this past year. plus i keep my hives off treatments and i am all for anything that helps immunity to pathogens.

seems like a no brainer. it adequate protein is available during the fall brood up, and if adequate protein increases vitellogenin, and if increased vitellogenin leads to better longevity and resistance to disease, and if supplementing with an appropriate feed decreases winter losses and promotes good build up in the spring....

then what's the down side?
 
#126 ·
then what's the down side?
The golden rule for nature is survival of the fittest with the exception of the human race. If you INTERVENE and keep the weak alive you will end up with pets that are very susceptible to any destructive force that nature throws their way. Unlike human beings, bees cannot be controlled totally by human beings like say a domestic cow or dog. So along come nature and the whole plan blows up in your face.

So now you are betting. Go ahead and roll the dice. The best card players know when to fold.
 
#123 ·
I would also say that we need to be careful about generalizations.

Do you have Carniolan or Italian Honeybees? Maybe a hybrid?

So, we know that they keep different size winter clusters, one has rapid spring buildup, one shuts down egg laying during dearths...etc. .

No, we shouldn't handle their nutritional requirements the same way.

All you can do is assess the nutritional and productivity status of your hive by examining the actual frames. Then you can decide how to handle their different requirements.

You can see the primary information with your own eyes. The secondary stuff is 'fluff'.
 
#124 ·
ok.

can you recommend what i need to look for at my fall inspection that would let me know my queen isn't going to survive the winter?

all of my colonies looked great last september with nice cluster sizes and adequate stores. i believe it is as peter describes whereby the queen and those first rounds of brood depend on the stored vitellogenin in the workers.

and as you pointed out in an earlier post that's something we can't see, but the result of it running out are predictable.

i sense you aren't buying the notion that vitellogenin plays this role, why?
 
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