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rethinking bee nutrition

54K views 315 replies 37 participants last post by  WLC 
#1 ·
i have mentioned in several posts that i was convinced that bees feeding on real honey would have a much better chance of staying healthy as compared to those feeding on syrup.

my thinking was that they would be getting the vital nutrients in real honey (not present in syrup) that are necessary for their immune systems to function optimally.

now i'm not so sure about that.

after revisiting randy oliver's papers on bee nutrition, i have come to understand that those vital nutrients for longevity and immunity come primarily from pollen.

oliver does a better job than i ever could explaining what vitellogenin is and the role it plays in bee health and wintering longevity:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/ (this is part one of a four part series)

i believe i have found a likely explanation as to why i had 5 of 18 hives suffer queen failure over this past winter. it may be that the natural forage that was available here late last year didn't have quite enough nutritional quality.

this may explain why those who supplement with protein patties in the fall are having better wintering success.

this brings me to think like it's not bad to 'top off' or 'bring up to wintering weight' using syrup late in the year, fearing that the bees will have less immunity to pathogens if they are using some stored syrup for fuel.

i have been putting a little dry pollen substitute out in the late winter for the bees to add to the natural pollen that they bring in. it may be a good idea for me to put some of that out in late summer as well to augment the natural flow as they get into rearing those last rounds of bees for overwintering.
 
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#43 ·
If they do effectively target pollens based on nutritional need it would be a very useful tool for developing or improving Sub formulas.

It does stand to reason that higher populations for longer periods would affect mite populations.

Simple Math... The Math is simple if you start with the correct numbers and understand them!
 
#45 ·
Pollen varies in protein content from less than 10% to over 50% depending on the source.
I remember reading somewhere that they do not automatically collect the pollen with the highest protein content.
Some pollens such as canola contain a complete set of the amino acids needed by bees and others are deficient in some.
Maybe they can collect one to compliment the deficiency in another.
 
#47 ·
So far this thread has mostly been about protein, but I did an unintentional experiment last summer by not harvesting honey until well into September. Even hives which had lots of honey had extremely curtailed brood production and were generally sad looking. I think that during our severe and Long nectar dearth they saved honey for winter, and suffered from malnutrition despite ample honey on the hives. They didn't starve to death they just went on crash diet. This year I'm pulling honey early and feeding throughout any periods of dearth. Which reminds me I need to get some robber screens....

Btw, I think the addition of pungent fall nectar made the honey more interesting. My customers love it - or say they do.
 
#52 ·
I would like to see tables (all in one place) showing how the various sources of nutrition contribute to productivity.

I would also like to see some logistic equations included as well.

That way, you could calculate (approximately) how much feed x, would give you how many bees y. Or, similar relationships.

I don't recall seeing that all in one place.
 
#54 ·
One explanation for why the addition of probiotics to pollen subs can enhance nutrition is that the resulting intestinal flora can balance out the nutritional content of the feed since the probiotic strains are producing them from the feed.

For example, you could take a cheap, nutritionally unbalanced feed source, and the probiotic organism could convert that to a more balanced mix of nutrients in the Honeybee gut.
 
#57 ·
your formula of course! :)

seriously, is there anything you can share to help us hobbiests/sideliners who will never need a truck load of nutra-bee?

obviously you have something beneficial to strengthen colonies in the fall. i guess i'm a little frustrated that it's not available to me.

have you considered setting up regional distributors, or making your product available through bee suppy outlets?

or perhaps bee clubs could put together a group order to reach your mimimum.

if you are not sold out for the year, can you pm me what you could do on a small quantity shipped to 35768?
 
#59 ·
have you considered setting up regional distributors, or making your product available through bee suppy outlets?

or perhaps bee clubs could put together a group order to reach your mimimum.
Sp, that is being done as we speak, new smaller 5-50lb cartons & will be out shortly hang in there. I want to make sure everything is done right, I'm not looking to bee the first just the best.
 
#58 ·
Let me run this up the flag pole and see if anyone salutes. :)

Since we are doing some rethinking anyways...

What if you could take cheap HFCS, add probiotics, AND starter nutrients?

Before everyone moans and groans, just hear me out for a minute.

There's '24 hour' yeasts that can convert sugar to alcohol very quickly because of the added nutrients.

So, while we don't want to make ethanol biofuel, we might want to make up some cheap media that can convert HFCS, and some equally cheap nutrients, into a whole lot of nutritionally balanced (let's say so for the sake of argument) liquid probiotic culture.

Or, am I just being too much of a Biologist?
 
#61 ·
Let me run this up the flag pole and see if anyone salutes. :)

So, while we don't want to make ethanol biofuel, we might want to make up some cheap media that can convert HFCS, and some equally cheap nutrients, into a whole lot of nutritionally balanced (let's say so for the sake of argument) liquid probiotic culture.

Or, am I just being too much of a Biologist?
Well the idea of a balanced liquid feed that would satisfy both the carb and protein needs of a hive in a liquid form that can be pumped is sort of the "holy grail" that has never been
perfected. The Tucson bee diet made some such claims but it sounds like there were some dispensing and solubility problems there. My guess is the folks over at NutraBee have been working overtime in the lab on just such a product. ;)
 
#62 ·
Jim:

I think that it wouldn't be such a big deal for beekeepers that make up their own sugar syrup to add a few nutrients and the contents of a Jarro-Dophilus EPS capsule (or two) to the mix before filling a hive feeder.

For example, HFCS is a cheap carbon source. The nutrient requirements of probiotic bacteria are known. The dry probiotic capsules are available at health food stores.

Why would we need a middle man if we can make up our own sugar/sub feed?

Do you see where I'm going on this?

It would be a 'living liquid culture feed'.
 
#64 ·
Milk, water, sugar, and a few Jaorro-Dophillus EPS capsules.

Now if I could only gather up the courage to try it out.

My bees seem to be consuming less sugar syrup as of late. Pollen is coming in.

Soo...

Maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal if I 'yogurted up' the 1 gallon BeePro feeder?
 
#67 ·
The probiotic organisms turn sugar and some milk into a balanced nutrients source. The lactic acid bacteria (LAB) themselves. Get it?

You automatically pasteurize the sugar and milk by heating it well about 65 degrees celsius, so when you add the sugar it dissolves easily. Once cooled, add sufficient LAB to quickly dominate the culture medium thereby crowding out competitors.

I would be interested in killing two birds with one stone. Feeding my bees both a sugar source and 'sub' at the same time.

The bees don't care if their nutrient source is from LAB meant for humans. HFCS, Soy, etc. is meant for humans too.

As long as it's all food grade folks. :)
 
#69 ·
The bees don't care if their nutrient source is from LAB meant for humans. HFCS, Soy, etc. is meant for humans too.
Well, without jumping on my soapbox about anything else in there, I must comment that while the bees may not have developed enough ganglia to "care" ... there is certainly a possibility that the strain(s) of bacteria one would purchase, selected for compatibility with the human digestive system, would be incompatible with, or even (gasp) directly attack some portions of the honey bees' digestive tracts...definitely an area where further experimentation would be required. ;)
 
#70 ·
I think that Keith is definitely onto something. Especially after having read the recent Vasquez paper.

I'm simply trying to see if LAB can be coaxed into turning table sugar into more valuable nutrients by adding some milk as a starter.

Since NYC has sprayed Anvil 10-10 for West Nile Virus last September, I get the uneasy feeling that I'm going to be ordering new bees for next spring regardless.

Do I dare push the LAB/sugar syrup envelope to the breaking point?

If the bees don't like it, I'll have to wash out the feeders.

If they do take it as a feed, what could the terrible consequences be for such an act?

Non vegan bees?

Aaaaah! :eek:
 
#72 ·
On a tangent, has anyone tested the effect of drought, etc. on the amino acid content of pollen? For example, does a plant that normal produces a well balanced pollen, produce an unbalance pollen when stressed by drought?

If so, it would explain alot of the problems from last year.

Crazy Roland
 
#73 ·
That's a good point. But as previously mentioned bees will forage whatever they can find when the good stuff isn't available - all the way down to sawdust. I'm convinced that my losses were cause by malnutrition last summer - by me not feeding them when I should have. I'm not planning to repeat that performance this year.
 
#75 ·
Acebird:

I'm not interested in selling a product.

It's more along the lines of rethinking bee nutrition.

Many beekeepers are compelled to feed syrup and other supplements.

This practice is often criticized for various reasons, especially the use of HFCS.

Since we are mixing the stuff up anyhow, why not throw a little lactic acid fermentation into the mix?

I've got about three gallons of 1:1 syrup left over, and it looks like the girls are taking less sugar syrup. They've averaged about a quart a day, but it has slowed down to less than a pint.

I don't want to order up sub, but I would like to improve on the nutritional quality of my feed.

I already have the syrup and the LAB capsules. All that I need is a little milk.

So, I think I'll spend Saturday morning making up some BeeGurt.

Most importantly, I have had problems in the past with leftover syrup going bad.

I think that the lactic acid produced by the LAB should help stop mold growing in my leftover syrup.
 
#76 ·
Since we are mixing the stuff up anyhow, why not throw a little lactic acid fermentation into the mix?

.
What is lactic acid fermentation?

When I think of fermentation, I always think of ethanol (old wine maker). I still remember the various pathways of anaerobic and aerobic respiration, but LAF (lactic acid fermentaion) is not something I remember.

Is your moldy syrup 1:1? If so - put a touch of vinegar in there... (Acetic Acid)...
 
#79 ·
While yeast will make ethanol, Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB) will make, well, lactic acid.

You can say that it's how yeast or LAB can crowd out competing microbes by making a product that other organisms can't tolerate.

It's a good thing that we can tolerate alcohol and lactic acid (up to a point).

If you like yogurt or certain cheeses, you can appreciate lactic acid fermentation.

Bees have LAB in their gut, and lactic acid fermentation is needed to make bee bread from pollen.

So, using LAB in bee nutrition isn't all that out of the ordinary.

That's the probiotic view.
 
#108 ·
While yeast will make ethanol, Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB) will make, well, lactic acid....
At aerobic condition yeasts will make an acetic acid, not an alcohol. I am not sure, but if I remember correctly, Lactic Acid Bacteria is working at anaerobic condition making lactic acid. Both, acetic and lactic acids have no nutrition value (to my knowledge). Both acids often used as a conservant to prevent other organisms to grow in the food - fermented and pickled food. When amount of acid reach its highest point, it actually kills bacteria and yeasts. Dead bacteria/yeasts release numerous substances, which provide additional nutrition value to the fermented food. It includes valuable minerals,vitamins, amino-acids etc - all product of decomposition of bacteria or yeasts. Fermentation is ancient way of making food. I love it! Note: some elements may be excreted also by living bacteria.

In my understanding,"probiotics" is live bacteria, which normally is a part of human "fauna" in digestive tract. Since, we humans, do everything possible to destroy our intestinal habitat - additional "probiotic" may be beneficial to some individuals with damaged flora. Another mechanism is that if flora has been damaged, "bad" bacteria substitute good bacteria. It cause diarrhea and other "stomach" issues. Probiotics could replace bad bacteria and re-establish a healthy environment. This "fauna" is very specific - even different nations have a different bacteria. Cows have entirely different "fauna" :)

What I was trying to explain is that human-beneficial bacteria may not be good for bees - they have their own "probiotics" inside their digestive tract. In fact ALL their food (honey and cake) are fermented with their own beneficial bacteria/yeasts.

If you want to give girls fermented food - easiest way would be to offer them Hefeweizen beer - just add a sugar :)
 
#82 ·
Acebird:

Look at it this way, I've tried to avoid feeding, but my bees weren't thriving.
So, while there's forage available, there isn't enough of it at the right time.

I'm compelled to feed.

Now if I can successfully turn table sugar into nutritionally complete LAB that can be conumed by bees...
 
#83 ·
i just want to make sure that my queens don't die of old age through the winter months (short on vitellogenin?).

wlc, i found the vasquez paper, but it was a little bit above my pay grade.

can you point me to any other useful reading regarding probiotics?
 
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