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  1. #301
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    1,483

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Sorrow?
    Sorry for misleading - apparently: Sorrel!!! I apologize for my English!
    Серёжа, Sergey

  2. #302
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,308

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    No problem. In hindsight I should probably have figured that out myself.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  3. #303
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Marshall county, AL
    Posts
    768

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    When I was a kid the older folks around here called one of the Wood Sorrels, "Rabbit Tobacco." It's the one with the tiny yellow flower.

  4. #304
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    320

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    Secondly, bee bread is quite ugly. Quite dark colored and looks wet. Looks like shades of wet dirt. The bright colors of pollen are not seen. Feed pollen above, even that under honey, is slightly off color, but not in the range of bee bread. We conclude that merely adding honey does not make bee bread. So, what IS the process?
    Walt
    Although I still think that most of the dark bee bread you described is just older fermented bee bread, I just found a reference to "entombed pollen" that also sounds like what you are describing. I have seen occasional scattered dark brown cells that are less than half full in my comb and wondered what they were.

    http://www.honeybeesuite.com/what-is-entombed-pollen/

    "Entombed pollen is pollen that is stored in a honey bee hive and encapsulated under a layer of propolis.

    The phenomenon was first described in a paper by Dennis vanEngelsdorp et al and published in the Journal of Invertebrate Pathology (2009). In that paper, the authors described cells of stored pollen that were covered by propolis and/or wax cappings. Since pollen is not normally coated in this way, the researchers performed chemical analyses on the pollen samples to discover why they may have been capped.

    What they found were cells of pollen containing elevated levels of certain pesticides. The original researchers found especially high levels of the fungicide chlorothalonil in the capped cells. They also reported that the pollen in these cells was brick red.

    VanEngelsdorp and his group theorized that the worker bees sensed the pollen in these cells was not good and subsequently covered it so it would not be consumed. Bees often coat offensive items with propolis—such as dead mice or snakes—to keep them from contaminating the interior of the hive. So coating contaminated pollen is consistent with other well-documented bee behavior.

    In the months since the original paper was published, other beekeepers have reported the presence of entombed pollen. Entombed cells have been found to contain various colors of pollen and various types of chemicals, including those chemicals used to combat Varroa mites. It has also been documented that colonies containing entombed pollen are usually in the process of dying. Entombing contaminated pollen may be a last-ditch effort made by a colony trying to save itself.

    Here is the link to the original paper: http://ento.psu.edu/directory/duv2/v...mbedpollen.pdf

    Might be worth paying attention to if you see it in your hive.

  5. #305
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    320

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    Nancy,
    Adding an empty below the broodnest doesn't help. First year, added a shallow of foundation - ignored. Second year, added a shallow of drawn comb - they put some feed pollen in the upper edge, less than an inch. Not what I was looking for. In the third year, when a shallow of brood was moved down, suddenly had what I wanted - a box filled with bee bread, and more remarkably, on all colonies of mixed genetics. Had found a way that was common to their basic instincts. And I'm not natuarally lucky.Walt
    In inspecting my 8 frame mediums, I'm finding the bottom box on each hive is full of bee bread and a little nectar.

  6. #306
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Elkton, Giles, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    1,318

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Nancy,
    You've been earning your keep on this thread. Keep it up, Lady.

    Was aware that the pollen box works with an all-med configuration. (If they winter in the bottom box) The colony sometimes gets a little over zealous with all mediums and makes more than one box of bee bread. Using a shallow below a deep constrains them to a single box of bee bread. Has to do with their preference for rearing brood in a deep when the alternative is a shallow. The basic broodnest remains in the deep - year around. I didn't get to my wintering configuration by accident or ignorance.

    Walt
    Last edited by wcubed; 06-03-2013 at 03:11 PM. Reason: addition

  7. #307
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Harrison, IN
    Posts
    24

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    WLC,

    I have very much enjoyed reading about your experiments. I was wondering if you had considered using water kefir? It has a large variety of LABs as well as yeasts in it and might help with your fermentation experiments.

  8. #308
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    salunra:

    Thanks, and yes I have considered water kefir for some obvious (vegan) reasons.

    However, I do have a bunch of batches that I will test at a short distance (10ft) from the entrances of the hives to see which ones the bees find the most attractive.

    I'm curious to see how the LAB/TURBO-Yeast/honey inoculant and Crisco compare.

    I don't think that anyone has ever tried converting crisco to FAEE/brood pheromone.

    I'm resorting to hamster bottle feeders to do this. I should have 3 small ones up by tomorrow.

    There's plent of pollen coming in, and I didn't want to press my luck too hard with it by filling a gallon feeder with it again.

    I will go to 1:2 syrup for now, since I am establishing 2 relatively new colonies.

    I hope that I can get them to fill out 3 deeps before winter.

  9. #309
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Oak Harbor, WA
    Posts
    303

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    deleted old info

  10. #310
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,368

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    wlc, any conclusions from your beegurt trial?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #311
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Lazy Mountain, Alaska, USA
    Posts
    43

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I experimented last month on two new splits and a package using a 1:1 sugar syrup infused with beepro, wintergreen, lemon grass and "Effective Microorganisms; EM-1" (TM) that mainly consists of Lactobacillus plantarum; L. casei; Streptococcus Lactis (Lactic acid bacteria) and Rhodopseudomonas palustris; Rhodobacter sphaeroides (Photosynthetic bacteria). This is just a rice serum mixed with milk cultures.

    Bees survived, and consumed 1 gallon each in less than a week. I have not feed them any more EM-1 in three weeks, but shall again next week on this set of hives. I have no test per se, other than the bee skat pattern that occurs during the first spring flights.

    Funny how some question these "experiments" or ideas to promote bee health, when humans force bees into 'standard' hives (boxes), feed fake honey, fake pollen and many other inconveniences.

    My bee habitat is extreme, so any help would be appreciated I think.
    My bees can hold it !

  12. #312
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,824

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by 779Hybrid410 View Post
    Bees survived.
    Well for one segment of beekeepers, bee survival is the sole criteria they use to declare their method a success.

    So if you use the same measure, it worked.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #313
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    wlc, any conclusions from your beegurt trial?
    Well, it didn't kill the colonies.

    Once the flow started, they pretty much focused on that rather than the feeder.

    However, now that the flow has wound down for late July into August, I'll probably try to feed again.

  14. #314
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,368

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    understood.

    i've paid more attention to pollen stores this year, and my deep brood chambers are loaded.

    i'll try another year without any pollen sub.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #315
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    charleston, wv, usa
    Posts
    61

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Sorry to come so late to the discussion. It has been an interesting thread. What is the latest update with the corn mash?
    No mention, but I'm sure all are aware of the study done at ASU where given resveratrol bees lived 33-38% longer.

  16. #316
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Locally, the flow never really stopped with the cool wet summer we had. White clover was still around in Central Park (until they recently mowed it again).

    The cracked corn/probiotics fermented well. However, I never had the opportunity to test it using an in hive feeder.

    I did try small open feeders with the different ferments, but they've ignored them.

    I've already put pails of the other ferments in a feeder hive.

    I'll put on another body with the corn ferment in pails shortly. (Thanks for reminding me)

    I'd like to see if they go for the ferments once the flow stops.

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