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  1. #241
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    The microbes are dormant.

    I've used organic honey, unpasteurized/unfiltered, to inoculate media made from 1/2 gallon 1:1 sucrose + 1/2 gallon whole milk.

    So, I now have 1 gallon inoculated with honey from NY and NH, and another gallon inoculated with honey from provence-France, the Himalayas, and Brazilian 'Killer Bees'.

    I can essentially try out strains found in honey from around the world. All at once should I choose to do so.

    They're in the inucubator at a little over 30 degrees C.

  2. #242
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Citrus Heights, CA, USA
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Is 100% carbon free organic pure cane sugar have less solids? (which I guess solids cause honey bee dysentery when they can't poop)

    and is honey bee dysentery a problem when the bees can fly for a bathroom break?

    I am new to this whole bee keeping and just feed my bees some Pure Florida Cane Sugar syrup.

    In my welcome post somebody shared a link stating that could raise a problem. From more research I found that feeding organic cane causes them to have to poop more and in winter time that can be a problem.

    http://www.honeybeesuite.com/is-orga...tter-for-bees/


    Thanks

  3. #243
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    2,991

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I am not trying to be funny, but sugar will never be carbon free... it is made of carbon! White cane or beet sugar will have less residuals than brown sugar.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  4. #244
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    How do you make bee feed organic?

    Hmmm.

    Maybe start with the bacteria in honey/pollen?

  5. #245
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Citrus Heights, CA, USA
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    6

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    It is funny.

    Its only a footprint thing.

  6. #246
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I took out the gallon feeders containing the fermented 1:1 sugar syrup/whole milk/probiotics.
    They took a quart from each feeder since 4pm last Thursday. That's a little better than the pint they took from 1:1 syrup the week before.

    I did see a real difference in the type of fermentation that occurred in the 1/2 gallon whole milk/1/2 gallon 1:1 syrup/honey inoculant cultures.

    When I used organic honey from NY and NH, the fermentation looked pretty much like that when probiotics were used. No gas produced, and an almost buttermilk like aroma.

    However, when I used organic honey from France/Brazil/and the Himalayas, I got what I would describe as heterofermentation with gas production. The milk solids seperated completely on the top 1/2 of the culture. It had a sharper odor than the other ones.

    I'll put them into the feeders and back into the hives shortly.

    The bees appear to be unharmed, building comb, and foraging for whatever pollen and nectar are out there. Plenty of pollen coming in.

    So, I'm seeing no harm done from live culture feed. The bees seem to be taking it better than 1:1 syrup alone, and I have noted an obvious difference in the type of fermentation produced by using different honeys as a source of inoculant.

  7. #247
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
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    320

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Interesting! Did they ever take any of the clear liquid or just the white part on top? Maybe all that gas is what makes those Brazilian killer bees so irritable?

  8. #248
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    It looks like they took the white part on top.

    The liquid below is clear. I tested the pH with a hydrion strip and it is in the pH 3 range!

    I can see why they didn't consume it.

    However, we know that there's lactic acid evaporating off of it.

    The liquid from the heterofermentive batch, which included killer bee honey, tested in the pH 5-6 range. It looks very different than the probiotic batch.

    I left a batch of it in a small container not far from the hives. I noticed ants were attracted to it and apparently feeding. No bees fed though.

    My thoughts are that I need to make the live culture more attractive to the bees.

    I do know that brood pheromone also consists of FAEE (fatty acid ethyl esters).

    I include some vegetable shortening, it could make it more attractive via transesterification.

    If there are yeasts present, perhaps the FAEEs could be created more directly from the shortening.

    That being said, I like the idea of putting test batches outside the hive to see if it can attract bees during a flow.

    However, they did take live culture. Hmmm....

  9. #249
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
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    320

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Wow, I'm amazed at the pH of the clear liquid--did you taste it? Was there any sweetness left or did the fermentation use up all the sugar? If it used up all the sugar, I doubt it would appeal to the bees. You might need to reduce the sugar during the fermentation to stop it at whatever pH you want, pasteurize it to kill the LAB, then add sugar back in for sweetness. (and probiotics?) Hate the idea of pasteurization, but in mead making the fermentation goes until either the alcohol concentration kills the yeast or they run out of sugar. Don't know if bacteria respond the same as yeast. Wonder what you could use to raise the pH back up that wouldn't hurt the bees.

  10. #250
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    King County, Washington
    Posts
    83

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    according to the article the really good stuff that promotes immunity and longevity (vitellogenin) is stored within the bees themselves, and it takes a long time to build up those stores.
    I've said this before here and I'll say it again. vitellogenin is the fountain of youth for honeybees

  11. #251
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I'm not sure if I should discard the low pH feed idea. The lactic acid may be acting as a form of mite control. I need to make it more palatable/attractive. There were bees on the feeder ladders when I took them out.

    vg again? Maybe live culture could increase vg if it contains the right signal molecules/nutrients. That's why I'm interested in adding Crisco to make FAEE (brood pheromone). But, I'd need yeast present for ethanol.

  12. #252
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Weather is a factor here. I won't be able to do much till next week.

    There's no feed in the hives at this time.

    However, I did get a shipment of 24 hour turbo yeast, and I put up a batch of 1:2 syrup with the turbo yeast and a heaping helping of Crisco shortening.

    I'm hopeful that it will do several things: create FAEE (pre-capping brood pheromone) as well as some ethanol that can form ethyl lactate when mixed with the probiotic lactic acid batch.

    Perhaps it will make the live culture feed more palatable.

    While both lactic acid and ethanol have been used as mite treatments on their own, the FAEE is a biological 'dirty trick'. A recent paper has shown that mites use it as a signal to time their egg laying in brood cells.

    You could say that if this doesn't work as a feed, it might work as a live culture mite treatment.

  13. #253
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Marshall county, AL
    Posts
    792

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    WLC, you lost me about 2 weeks ago. Are you making bee-gurt or bee-meth?

  14. #254
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,527

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by rbees View Post
    I've said this before here and I'll say it again. vitellogenin is the fountain of youth for honeybees
    what makes you say that rbees?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #255
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
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    320

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    WLC can you translate the part about the FAEE into layman's terms? Are you talking about plain Crisco or are you making something out of it? Is it a simple recipe or a chemist's nightmare? I've heard of using Crisco in the hive but thought it was in relation to small hive beetles. Have you tasted your beegurt mixes to ensure that they are still sweet (and therefore attractive to bees)? With yeast I know that the fermented product goes on until it uses up all the sugar resulting in beer (like bees, I like sugar, beer not so much).

    You obviously have a lot of valuable knowledge you could share with those of us who aren't as deeply schooled in science as you, and maybe one of the most useful things you are doing is bridging the gap between science and real world applications. It is really useful when you add "dummy it down" terminology and explanations that we can understand. Not easy for a scientist who eats 17 letter words for breakfast, I imagine. When I try to read the scientific papers I'm usually able to understand the abstract and conclusion, but everything in between is over my pay grade. But even just your references to things I'm not aware of has made me do a lot of searching and reading, so that in itself is a good thing. Thanks!

  16. #256
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Crisco is shortening made of certain types of oils. You can mix crisco and ethanol, and under the right conditions, make something called an ester (alcohol bonded to organic acids- like fatty acids/lactic acid), AKA:essential oils.

    So, FAEE is really just essential oils, made from ethanol and crisco. Ethanol and lacic acid should also form esters.

    What happens when I mix crisco and the different fermentation cultures is...

    a whole lot of alcohols and organic acids switching partners.

    So, hopefully the essentual oils make it more palatable.

    FAEEs where found to be present in precapped larvae and were also found to be a signal for mites to lay eggs. It could be a useful mite treatment besides the lactic acid/ethanol.

    So, there's some science to say that it might be helpful to make FAEE/essential oils. I will test out some small batches to see which ones the bees find attractive and any other observable effects.

    When I removed the feed, it smelled like lactic acid and tested in the low pH 3 range. No, I didn't taste it myself, but it's a thought.

    Don't let the different types of fermentation, lactic acid/ethanol, or the different types of essential oils/esters, FAEE/LAEE, throw you.

    I hope to demonstrate that live culture can be a useful tool to beekeepers.

    It just hasn't happened quite yet.

  17. #257
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    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,527

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    is it true that the average fat in pollen runs about 10%

    i wonder why type of vegetable fats (lipids) they are?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #258
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Lazy Mountain, Alaska, USA
    Posts
    43

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    WLC,

    Instead of Crisco, perhaps coconut oil?

    Cheers,
    My bees can hold it !

  19. #259
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Elkton, Giles, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    1,339

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    All this discussion about the advantages of fermentation is over my head, but thought I might add that the bees have their own version built in, which we tend to ignore.

    In posts 14 & 32, we described the incorporation of the pollen box in our full-season mngmt. The long-term pollen stored in the pollen box is quite different from the feed pollen stored adjacent to the broodnest, or the excess feed pollen encapsulated under honey as the broodnest recedes during and after main flow.

    The literature uses the words pollen and "bee bread" pretty much interchangably. I arbitrarily call the long-term pollen stored in the pollen box bee bread. It is different in several ways, and I believe the differences can be described as effects of deliberate fermentation. First, it's only filled to roughly half depth of a brood cell. Could that be to control the batch volume of whatever they do to convert the pollen to bee bread? (fermentation)

    Secondly, bee bread is quite ugly. Quite dark colored and looks wet. Looks like shades of wet dirt. The bright colors of pollen are not seen. Feed pollen above, even that under honey, is slightly off color, but not in the range of bee bread. We conclude that merely adding honey does not make bee bread. So, what IS the process?

    No question in my mind that available "bee bread" in Aug. improves wintering. Where are the scientists when you need them? They have a unique skill in avoiding anything in my management approach.

    Walt

  20. #260

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Walt, the process is roughly as follows:

    1) Bees collect pollen. During flight and collection bees add lactic acid bacteria and some yeasts. Some yeasts also are present on pollen already.

    2) Packed into the cell the yeasts start fermenting. Producing vitamin B and growth hormons.

    3) The growth hormons trigger the lactic acid bacteria to explode, which they do. Honeybees carry special lactic acid bacteria that can be found in honeybees only. At least six lactic acid bacteria species are exclusively found in honeybees. The lactic acid bacteria (LAB) produce vitamin K and are the bees one and only source for vitamin K. Of course the LAB produce lactic acid which makes the bee bread long lasting.

    4) Fungi also are working the bee bread all the time. Especially Aspergillus niger and Penicillium. The fungi produce sterols, antibiotics, fatty acids and enzymes. Fatty acids are needed for immune system, enzymes for breaking down food and some toxins. (Guess what fungicides do to bee bread fermentation...)

    Bee bread is sometimes covered with honey for winter consumption. (Hidden bee bread stores.) This is what they raise brood from in the midst of winter. (Plus the fat body.)

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