Page 12 of 16 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 ... LastLast
Results 221 to 240 of 316
  1. #221
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,042

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    understood joe, and that really helps alot. many thanks!
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  2. #222
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,030

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Lacto bacillus does contribute to the nutritional content of pollen or bee bread, but also offer some preservative properties with lowering the pH, perhaps that is more significant?
    JSL:
    I'll agree and go further. Since the pH of sugar syrup/HFCS isn't near the phsiological pH of the Honeybee gut, pollen, or honey for that matter, it can put an undue stress on the bees.

    There's a metabolic price to pay somewhere along the line to bring down the pH.

    Similarly, yeast is a good source of nutrients, and is readily available in the correct particle size. However, for all the good qualities that yeast provides as a good nutrient source, it is pretty far out of balance in some nutrients…
    I wouldn't rule out using different organisms along with LAB. For example, some amount of yeast fermentation could be beneficial.

    However, the main goal of providing a low pH environment as well as beneficial strains of LAB could go a long way towards improving colony health and nutrition on their own.

    So, right now, I'm simply focused on the question of Honeybees accepting Beegurt, or even sour mash wash, without any adverse affects. I hope to see, at the very least, that comb building, colony buildup, or pollen/honey storage aren't adversely affected.

    I'm also hopeful that lactic acid production via live culture feed will be able to mitigate pests, parasites, and pathogens.

    I only use 'food grade' treatments.

    Live culture may offer a hat trick: low cost feeds, better nutrition, and improved colony health without 'chemicals'.

    Those are my current thoughts on the Beegurt experiment.

  3. #223
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Oak Harbor, WA
    Posts
    259

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Nice post - thanks!

    One possible benefit of these secondary metabolites in nectar may be antibiotic activity against microbes (Adler 2000), a
    function that is shared by proteins in nectar, termed nectarins (Thornburg et al. 2003).

    Quote Originally Posted by thenance007 View Post
    Here are two more references that might be useful to those following this thread:

    "Bee food: the chemistry and nutritional value of nectar, pollen and mixtures of the two"

    http://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream...pdf?sequence=1

    "Influence of Some Protein Diets on the Longevity and Some Physiological Conditions of Honeybee"

    http://http://www.scialert.net/qredi...737&linkid=pdf

  4. #224
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,042

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    007, the link to the second paper didn't work for me, i got it here:

    http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/alqarni/Do...conditions.pdf

    fixin' to check it out, thanks!
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  5. #225
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,042

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    hmmm, not much there. even though it was a lab vs. field experiment i wouldn't mind seeing the full text.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  6. #226
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    322

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Thanks, SP. Try this link, then click on "full pdf" at the bottom. Don't know why that link doesn't work. . .

    http://www.scialert.net/abstract/?doi=jbs.2006.734.737

  7. #227
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Springfield, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    287

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    All I need to do to approximate the lactic acid concentration in sour feed is use a good pH meter, the ph, the pKa of lactic acid, and a formula (Henderson Hasselbalch).
    Assuming the acidity is due only to the presence of lactic acid...
    Pete. New 2013, 3 hives, zone 6a
    To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous.

  8. #228
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    323

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    WLC,

    Very interesting! Finding a palatable and nutritious diet is always the fun part.

    I may have missed the details of your Beegurt, but it sounds like a similar type of substance I use as a liquid diet for cell builders at times. My biggest challenge with using a liquid protein diet is the stability. I do not use preservatives, so it does not have a long shelf life, but the bees like it. However, too much fermentation and the bees do not like it, but the SHB sure are attracted to it.
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  9. #229
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,030

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    JSL:

    It's simply whole milk, 1:1 sugar syrup, and probiotic LAB.

    I consider the live bacteria to be the main nutrient source. The lactic acid may have multiple beneficial properties as well.

    It's a live feed that replaces lactic acid as it evaporates.

  10. #230
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,042

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    (raises hand)

    i thought of another question joe. you mentioned the bees transitioning to making winter bees happening in july sometimes.

    i would have thought that it would be the last few rounds of brood before the the first frost.

    how does one determine that they are transitioning to making winter bees?
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  11. #231
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    322

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    That one study I quoted indicates that the acceptance of substitute plus 5% pollen was much higher than beebread or substitute w/o pollen. That would mean that it would only take 1 lb. of pollen to significantly improve acceptance of 20 lbs. of substitute. Since the pollen might also provide missing nutrients and micronutrients, it would seem worthwhile to trap some pollen in the Spring when there is a good variety and freeze it to add it to the Aug/Sept. feeding. Speaking for hobbyists, not commercial. A pollen trap runs at most $75, some are much cheaper and would seem to be a good investment. I could also see rubbing it into empty cells as shown in Mike Palmer's video and putting it next to the brood in winter. Even if as Walt says, they will fill the lower broodbox with beebread for fall brood in ideal circumstances, that box is empty all winter and they would have no source of pollen/beebread until Spring to rebuild their stores or for the small amount of brood born over winter.

  12. #232
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    323

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Squarepeg,

    For a graduate school project, I marked a large number of newly emerged workers every week to use them later in their lives for a foraging study. Over the years I noticed that a progressively smaller proportion of marked workers would leave the hive to become foragers. They were not necessarily winter bees in July, but would be “nest bees”. Some years it started in early July, others it would be late July or August.

    Joe
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  13. #233
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,042

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    i see. so by virtue of not foraging their longevity was extended. i'm trying to figure out when the best time might be to make a supplement available when the overwintering bees are being reared. i am assuming that the honey supers should be off if i am giving supplement. for me, i remove my last capped honey just before the fall flow starts here. i guess i'll just have to observe the brood rearing through the summer dearth, and try to notice whether or not it picks up as we get into our fall flow. again, many thanks!
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  14. #234
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,030

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    After reading some of the comments made (both on and off the board) regarding the types of strains involved in the fermentation of pollen and honey, I'm making up a batch of Beegurt using a few types of raw honey (unpasteurized or filtered) as the starter culture rather than probiotics made for human consumption.

    The bees have taken another pint or so of the Beegurt that I've given them using probiotics. I would like to give them a few more days before I pull the feeders and examine how much was consumed during 1 week.

    My feeling is that it probably doesn't smell quite right to the bees.
    Maybe using the bacterial cultures found in raw honey would improve on that.

    It has rained at least part of 8 out of the last eleven days. Today, they were bringing in alot of pollen.

    I hope to be able to examine my test hives in good weather to see how well they have withstood the Beegurt.

    I did put out a small animal waterer with sour mash wash, But there have been no takers so far. Not a bee took interest. I may want to change the culture I've used to make sour mash as well.

  15. #235
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    322

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    WLC - Is there any way to color your BeeGurt with something non-toxic so that you can track better where it is being stored in the hive and such? Beet juice? Just a thought!

  16. #236
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,030

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I was thinking red cabbage juice. It turns red at an acid pH.

    On second thought, some food coloring would be an easier way to track it. Blue food coloring maybe?
    Last edited by WLC; 05-20-2013 at 04:54 PM.

  17. #237
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Big Grin Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Blue coloring maybe?
    BLUE..... lets not get carried away here. lol
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  18. #238
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,030

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Red cabbage juice gets degraded.

    I'm not so sure about food coloring.

    Does anyone normally see anything blue in a cell?

  19. #239
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    322

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Yea, yellow, orange and red could be pollen and beebread. I vote blue

  20. #240
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    322

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I thought honey was antibiotic. Doesn't that mean it has killed the live bacteria? Or is it just the concentration keeping spores from germinating? I know the nectar is inoculated. My understanding is that the bees coat the beebread with honey to protect it. If you need some beebread, I can send you a chunk. . .

Page 12 of 16 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads