Page 11 of 16 FirstFirst ... 910111213 ... LastLast
Results 201 to 220 of 316
  1. #201
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,471

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    WLC - If you sprouted whole corn, then roasted, would you not get shorter saccharides that your microbes could use?

    Crazy Roland

  2. #202
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,045

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Sprouting and then roasting corn would certainly increase the protein content. I assume there would be changes to the carbohydrate content . But, now we're getting into proper brewing techniques.

    I've only pasteurized cracked corn and added probiotics.

    Corn has it's own natural microbes that, when allowed to grow in natural succession, will eventually lead to lactic acid fermentation. However, the initial phases have been described as smelling like puke.

  3. #203
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Oak Harbor, WA
    Posts
    259

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    i have mentioned in several posts that i was convinced that bees feeding on real honey would have a much better chance of staying healthy as compared to those feeding on syrup.

    my thinking was that they would be getting the vital nutrients in real honey (not present in syrup) that are necessary for their immune systems to function optimally.

    now i'm not so sure about that.

    after revisiting randy oliver's papers on bee nutrition, i have come to understand that those vital nutrients for longevity and immunity come primarily from pollen.
    I liked Mr. Oliver's article - and I think if covered pollen well. I DO think that we still overlook the importance of nectar in bee nutrition and seem to take a pass at it's importance so that we don't feel bad feeding bees plain old sugar water.

    Although its main ingredient is natural sugar (i.e., sucrose (table sugar), glucose, and fructose),[9] nectar is a brew of many chemicals. ... All twenty of the normal amino acids found in protein have been identified in various nectars, with alanine, arginine, serine, proline, glycine, isoleucine, threonine, and valine being the most prevalent

    Amino acids are the second most abundant nectar solutes after sugar and contain a wide variety of both essential and non-essential amino acids as well as some non-protein amino acids.

    Other substances reported in nectar include organic acids, terpenes, alkaloids, flavonoids, glycosides, vitamins, phenolics, and oils.

    Concerning metals, the "major cation of most nectars ..." was Potassium (K) makes up 35 to 74 percent of the total cation content. Averages of other notable cations were Salt (Na) (17.9%), Calcuim (Ca) (12.8%), Magnesium (Mg) (5.9%), Aluminium (Al) (4.6%), Iron (Fe) (1.2%), and Manganese (Mn) (0.8%)

    I often think about why honey from different nectar sources have different colors and flavours and how those compounds interact with each other and with compounds found in the pollen that they collect. The bees aren't just drinking sugar water. Maybe all these elements can be found in pollen alone, I do not know. I think nectar and honey composition still needs to be in our thoughts.

    http://www.bb.iastate.edu/necgex/Nectar.htm
    http://books.google.com/books?id=0L1...onents&f=false
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nectar
    Heinrich, G. (1989) Analysis of cations in nectars by means of a laser microprobe mass analyser (LAMMA). Beitr. Biol. Pflanz 64:293-308

  4. #204
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,045

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    rniles:

    I don't disagree with any of the above.

    There are plenty of beekeepers experiencing drought conditions in their area. So, they'll say, "What nectar?"

    I'm trying to improve the nutrition of my feed so that I can store up some honey supers for fall and winter feeding. Unfortunately, I can't get anywhere near the amount I need unless my hives have built up. Which means feeding them.

    It's a catch22.

  5. #205
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Oak Harbor, WA
    Posts
    259

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Hi WLC ...and I wasn't disagreeing with you either ...and i like the discussion on probiotics. I was just trying to say that the sugar syrup that we feed them, when we must feed, has to be something better than plain ol' sugar water. That along with all the science that is going into pollen substitute, we need to try to figure out a better nectar substitute as well.

    It's a great discussion and I've been enjoying reading through it.

  6. #206
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,041

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    hi rniles...

    i'm still a big proponent of avoiding syrup except to prevent starvation, (and perhaps to help a package get some comb drawn).

    i'm going on 2 years now without feeding except for a very small amount of syrup i gave to a couple of late swarms caught last year.

    but apparantly that wasn't good enough as i lost a handful of queens over the winter, and i'm thinking it may have been from protein deficiency.

    so my rethinking is really more that i'll be paying more attention to pollen stores this year, and i'm considering supplementing.

    thanks for the reply.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  7. #207
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    8,442

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I can't get anywhere near the amount I need unless my hives have built up. Which means feeding them.
    In one post you said your bees are being poisoned. It is hard to build up a population under those conditions. I don't think feeding is the answer, but I don't want you to stop what you are doing because you could come up with a much better organic feed than what is available today. Obviously I would choose non GMO corn as a base for myself.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  8. #208
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,045

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Acebird:

    Who sprays an entire section of Manhattan, where over 100,000 people live, the first week of September, with Anvil 10-10?

    Haven't they heard of Bt? You know, mosquito bits and dunks. Haven't they heard of the pollinator crisis?

    Jeeze.

    You do know that they sell organic corn? They also sell organic sugar, milk, and of course, probiotics.

    You can do your own organic 'thing' if you got some land and maybe a goat or two.

  9. #209
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    323

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Interesting thread to read! Bee season just doesn't allow much time to catch up on Bee Source.

    I think it was Radar's response to the McDonald’s comment that I liked. All foods provide nutrients, but your doctor will say all things in moderation are best.

    Also several references to the theory of nutritional wisdom, even as “advanced” as we humans are we do not really seem to be able to select a diet based on its nutritional value, and bees are no different. There are a limited number of taste receptors and bees eat what tastes good. Just like those doughnuts I get every once and a while…
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  10. #210
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    320

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Here are two more references that might be useful to those following this thread:

    "Bee food: the chemistry and nutritional value of nectar, pollen and mixtures of the two"

    http://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream...pdf?sequence=1

    "Influence of Some Protein Diets on the Longevity and Some Physiological Conditions of Honeybee"

    http://www.scialert.net/abstract/?doi=jbs.2006.734.737 Then click "Fulltext pdf"
    Last edited by thenance007; 05-19-2013 at 06:34 PM. Reason: additional reference

  11. #211
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,041

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    cool article 007.

    the last sentence:

    "More data on the amino
    acid composition of fresh pollens are needed to
    assess the nutritional significance of these pollen
    choices at the colony level: are they due to floral
    constancy or the selection of complementary
    pollens to compensate for amino acid imbalances?"

    i though it was generally accepted that the bees preferentially seek out the pollens needed to balance out the amino acids. looks like that assumption is open to question.

    it reinforces my feeling that i may want to provide a balanced supplement when they are rearing the long lived wintering bees.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  12. #212
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,113

    Lightbulb Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    it reinforces my feeling that i may want to provide a balanced supplement when they are rearing the long lived wintering bees.
    "may want to provide a balanced supplement"
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  13. #213
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,045

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I felt that the lactic acid bacteria in the fermented culture would provide the balanced nutrients. There's all kinds of nutrients in LAB cells.

  14. #214
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    323

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    A balanced supplement/substitute is even more essential during rapid colony expansion and brood rearing, spring or fall... It takes a lot of food and nutrients to feed all of those little mouths!
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  15. #215
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,041

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    well said keith (quoting me ) and joe.

    joe, do you think that the high number of queens i lost (6/18 died in late winter/early spring before drones were available) may have been due to poor nutrition (there was no lack of honey).
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  16. #216
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,041

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    well said keith (quoting me ) and joe.

    joe, do you think that the high number of queens i lost (5/18 died in late winter/early spring before drones were available) may have been due to poor nutrition (there was no lack of honey).
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  17. #217
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,443

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I'm not Joe, but for me, I would doubt the queen would be lost due to poor nutrition, at least at the time she died, the queen normally is cared for best they can even in a starving hive, she also has better bodily reserves.

    Queens who disappear middle of winter in a seemingly healthy hive, are mostly due to poor mating, chemical treatments used during her rearing, varroa, or old age.

    You will also sometimes see a sickly looking queen, which could be caused by many factors even rough handling, still laying OK, but you know she won't live long. The bees do not always supersede such a queen and so can get caught in winter if she dies. But for that to happen to 6/18 would seem unlikely.

    I also had a site once where the bees constantly went queenless. Never figured it out, it's still a mystery. But eventually, I pulled all the hives out and abandoned the site.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  18. #218
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,041

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    interesting ot, and many thanks. i always value what you have to say.

    poor mating could be a real possibility. varroa could also be a factor as these weren't treated and it was before i learned how to do a mite count. however the workers made it and i didn't see much frass in the combs.

    the losses were split between two yards.

    i am just trying to understand the connection between nutrition and longevity for the queens and the long lived winter bees.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  19. #219
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    323

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Squarepeg,

    Based on what I see, if it was poor nutrition, it would have been due to poor nutrition during the queen rearing process. In my area, the optimal queen rearing window is generally May and June. Queens raised during that time have the greatest survivability and longevity. It is spring time with plenty of natural resources and supplement for the cold wet spells to feed the cell builders.

    This is different from the physiological change that takes place when a colony begins transitioning to “winter” bees, which surprisingly starts as early as July in some years, in my area.
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

  20. #220
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Albany, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    323

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    WLC

    Lacto bacillus does contribute to the nutritional content of pollen or bee bread, but also offer some preservative properties with lowering the pH, perhaps that is more significant? Similarly, yeast is a good source of nutrients, and is readily available in the correct particle size. However, for all the good qualities that yeast provides as a good nutrient source, it is pretty far out of balance in some nutrients…
    Breeder Queens & Honey Bee Nutritional Supplements
    www.latshawapiaries.com

Page 11 of 16 FirstFirst ... 910111213 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads