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  1. #181
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    10,142

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    No I don't it was a long time ago. And it was someone else that was working for the company that packaged the dog food. It caused himself many skin problems. That posion might not be used anymore (more than likely it doesn't work). But you can be sure they got another one to replace it.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  2. #182
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I hope that by pasteurizing the starting materials, and then allowing the probiotic LAB to ferment the batch, that I can at least mitigate any contamination issues.

    Don't forget, the pH can reach 4 with lactic acid concentration of about 4-5%. That's as high or higher than the concentration in some organic acid treatments for Varroa!

    Today I examined the 1 gallon in-hive pro feeders and the 1:1 syrup was hardly being consumed. Perhaps a pint in a week. It could be a bad batch, or the flow is on, or since it's a package install, I've hit the first brood cycle transition. I dunno.

    I removed the feeders, dumped the syrup, washed the feeders with clorox solution, and rinsed.

    I then poured a gallon of the probiotic sour syrup/Beegurt [1 gallon 1:1 sucrose syrup + 1 pint whole milk (pasteurized by heating to 65 degrees C) + contents of 2 capsules of Jarro Dophilus EPS] that has been fermenting since last Saturday, into the feeders.

    Yes, I did the deed.

    I'm testing Beegurt on my bees.

  3. #183
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,915

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    thanks for keeping us posted wlc, very interesting concept.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #184
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    320

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Got my fingers and toes crossed, WLC--I like your courage!

  5. #185
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    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    tn007:

    It's not courage. I'm repaying a debt. Probiotics saved me. I'm a believer. Fermentation power baby!

  6. #186
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
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    2,064

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I hope we can learn something from your trial.


    A spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down!

  7. #187
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I'd like to report that the bees have accepted Beegurt.

    They've consumed about a pint of the top 'yogurt' layer since yesterday. They have another pint or so before they reach the clear 'non-yogurt' layer.

    As a reminder, I added a pint of whole milk to a gallon of 1:1 sucrose syrup, pasteurized it, and then added the contents of two probiotics capsules once it cooled.

  8. #188
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,915

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    very cool wlc, did you measure ph?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #189
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Ph between 4 and 5.

    The milk curdles when the syrup becomes sour.

  10. #190
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    understood. what measures will you be using to evaluate the effects of your beegurt?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #191
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I'll eyeball the number of drawn frames of foundation (deeps) per gallon.

    My first concern will be to see the approximate rate of consumption of Beegurt per day.

    After I've finished feeding about 3-5 more gallons of the stuff (I started at 4pm, Thurs. 5/16/13), I'll switch to sour mashed, crack corn wash.

    It appears to be even more acidic than the beegurt (via hydrion test strips).

    I want to demonstrate that they accept both Beegurt and Sour Mash Wash first without any observable adverse effects.

    I felt that this was more important for now since it could encourage other beekeepers to attempt live, probiotic culture feeding of bees.

    Alot more is at stake than the few $s worth of resources that I'm risking.

    It could be a new paradigm in bee feed.

    Technically speaking, you could inoculate animal waste with cracked corn, and produce a nutrient rich product that could be used as bee feed.

    Got livestock? All you need is cracked corn to feed the bees.

    No, I'm not kidding.

  12. #192
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    interesting, and again thanks for keeping us posted.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #193
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    3,185

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I wonder if they are storing it, consuming it, or both. If storing it, I wonder what it's fate would be long term.

    Yea... I'm curious too....
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  14. #194
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Are you thinking Beecheese?

  15. #195
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    May 2011
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    Nashville, TN
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    320

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Go, WLC!!!

  16. #196
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    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    3,185

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Are you thinking Beecheese?
    Make that "Bree".....
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  17. #197
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    My feeling is as follows, by increasing the lactic acid concentration in syrup, you not only create an acidified feed using live culture, which more closely resembles the pH of honey, you can also make a form of Varroa treatment.

    Those lactic acid bacteria will turn the sugar in sugar syrup into lactic acid until it reaches a particular acid concentration. Organic acid concentrations of 3.5% are a common form of Varroa treatment.

    Sour syrup could approach that concentration.

    I already think that the wash solution in my sour mash cracked corn has reached and surpassed that concentration.

    All I need to do to approximate the lactic acid concentration in sour feed is use a good pH meter, the ph, the pKa of lactic acid, and a formula (Henderson Hasselbalch).

    However, all that being said, it doesn't mean anything unless other 'adventurers' can repeat and corroborate the results.
    Last edited by WLC; 05-18-2013 at 08:49 AM.

  18. #198
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    10,142

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    WLC do you have these bees contained so they have no other choice but to eat this feed?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #199
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    320

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Here are links to 2 articles on using lactic acid for varroa control:

    http://www.moraybeedinosaurs.co.uk/V...actic_acid.htm

    http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkere...x.html?lang=en

    Based on the above articles, spraying lactic acid isn't effective on capped brood. But possibly if the bees are feeding Beegurt to the brood before capping? Lots of questions to be answered, but intriguing possibilities!
    Last edited by thenance007; 05-17-2013 at 09:11 PM. Reason: wrong URL

  20. #200
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    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    There's a Turkish study comparing Varroa treatments, including different organic acids. While lactic acid wasn't as effective as oxalic acid, it still had enough of an effect to be noticable.
    Let's not forget that LAB will make lactic acid when it is either diluted, or evaporates from the culture medium.


    No Acebird. The flow is underway, and they're taking in pollen.

    It's also important for me to see if they will take the feed during a flow.

    You know, '1 out of 10 bees prefers Beegurt'. Or, something like that.
    Last edited by WLC; 05-18-2013 at 03:46 AM.

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