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rethinking bee nutrition

54K views 315 replies 37 participants last post by  WLC 
#1 ·
i have mentioned in several posts that i was convinced that bees feeding on real honey would have a much better chance of staying healthy as compared to those feeding on syrup.

my thinking was that they would be getting the vital nutrients in real honey (not present in syrup) that are necessary for their immune systems to function optimally.

now i'm not so sure about that.

after revisiting randy oliver's papers on bee nutrition, i have come to understand that those vital nutrients for longevity and immunity come primarily from pollen.

oliver does a better job than i ever could explaining what vitellogenin is and the role it plays in bee health and wintering longevity:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/ (this is part one of a four part series)

i believe i have found a likely explanation as to why i had 5 of 18 hives suffer queen failure over this past winter. it may be that the natural forage that was available here late last year didn't have quite enough nutritional quality.

this may explain why those who supplement with protein patties in the fall are having better wintering success.

this brings me to think like it's not bad to 'top off' or 'bring up to wintering weight' using syrup late in the year, fearing that the bees will have less immunity to pathogens if they are using some stored syrup for fuel.

i have been putting a little dry pollen substitute out in the late winter for the bees to add to the natural pollen that they bring in. it may be a good idea for me to put some of that out in late summer as well to augment the natural flow as they get into rearing those last rounds of bees for overwintering.
 
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#2 ·
Well I do a lot of feeding and I, in fact, have quite a few hives that have derived as much as 90% of their carbohydrates from corn syrup since last fall. My take is that, yeah, it does the job but there is a cost in "wear and tear" on the bees to constantly cleaning out feeders. In addition to be most effective it has to be fed early enough in the fall so that the bees have a chance to properly cure it and orient it in the hive. I think for those reasons alone that bees will winter a bit better on most honeys though with different honeys (such as those that granulate rock hard) you may see different results.
 
#4 ·
Also, just a note, don't forget that there actually IS an amount (however small) of pollen in the honey; not to mention of honey in the bee's stored pollen (bee bread). So, in a "natural" setting, what they get from either of honey/pollen, they get from both, just in different concentrations.

That said, if a hive is hungry, feed them! Better to have a slightly weaker immune system than die of starvation.
 
#5 ·
according to the article the really good stuff that promotes immunity and longevity (vitellogenin) is stored within the bees themselves, and it takes a long time to build up those stores.
 
#7 ·
No, tried it once but decided it was counter productive to the brood break that we like to get plus had some issues with shb. If you really want to build big hives, though, fall is the time to be pushing the sub to them. Two different approaches for sure, in recent years we have been getting 2/3rds to 3/4ths of our bees to grade out for almond pollination and thats good enough for me. Many "California guys" like Keith are no doubt doing better than 100% with a good sub program but probably have to work a little harder on mite control. I know one excellant northern beekeeper that got about 110% of his fall numbers to grade out last year.
 
#9 ·
understood, many thanks jim.

we have a bimodal flow here. the big one from late winter through early summer, and the smaller one from late summer into fall.

i thought i was doing alright by leaving enough honey to get them through the summer nectar dearth, but i hadn't given much thought to the fact that there is a pollen dearth as well.

the fall forage isn't multifloral as the spring forage, with almost all of the pollen that i see being brought in from goldenrod. i am wondering if it would help to supplement through the summer with a well rounded source of amino acids in order to get them strong with vitellogenin in preparation for the fall brood up of the long-lived overwintering bees,

especially since i am not treating for mites, and the bees are relying on natural immunity for the viruses.
 
#14 ·
Not to cut in on your business, Kieth, but my answer is "none of the above."
From 2000 to 2005, we applied the pollen box maneuver in the spring build up period. We got reliable wintering - almost guarenteed. Simple procedure - when the first shallow above the single deep was basically filled with expansion brood, it was placed below the deep. In the buildup, when pollen is plentiful, the brood in that now bottom shallow is or was reliably backfilled with beebread (long-term pollen).

Beebread at the bottom is sacred until Aug. - when it's used to start fall expansion to rear wintering bees. With that beebread available at the end of our midsummer doldrums, wintering was much improved. Went from 25% weaklings in late winter to ALL fairly equal in strength in Feb. This was a late addition to my full-season mngt. We didn't see the natural tendency to store the "pollen reserve" below the brood until we went to the unlimited broodnest of checkerboarding. It's stored during buildup, while the cluster is growing upward.

We believe it is standard procedure in the cylindrical tree hollow. Come late summer, the brood nest grows downward into the pollen reserve. Serves 2 purposes: Starts fall buildup for wintering bees and relocates the broodnest in the bottom, where they want it. Seems rather awkward to me to go the expense and work of doing it a different way when the bees have a format to make it happen their way.

I get too much static when I talk about their preference for brood in a deep when the alternative is a shallow, Or their reluctance to jump the gap in comb at box joints, but both those observations play into my application of the pollen box maneuver. It WORKS.
No protein feeding.

Walt
 
#23 ·
Not to cut in on your business, Kieth, but my answer is "none of the above."
From 2000 to 2005, we applied the pollen box maneuver in the spring build up period. We got reliable wintering - almost guarenteed. Simple procedure - when the first shallow above the single deep was basically filled with expansion brood, it was placed below the deep. In the buildup, when pollen is plentiful, the brood in that now bottom shallow is or was reliably backfilled with beebread (long-term pollen).

Beebread at the bottom is sacred until Aug. - when it's used to start fall expansion to rear wintering bees. With that beebread available at the end of our midsummer doldrums, wintering was much improved. Went from 25% weaklings in late winter to ALL fairly equal in strength in Feb. This was a late addition to my full-season mngt. We didn't see the natural tendency to store the "pollen reserve" below the brood until we went to the unlimited broodnest of checkerboarding. It's stored during buildup, while the cluster is growing upward.

We believe it is standard procedure in the cylindrical tree hollow. Come late summer, the brood nest grows downward into the pollen reserve. Serves 2 purposes: Starts fall buildup for wintering bees and relocates the broodnest in the bottom, where they want it. Seems rather awkward to me to go the expense and work of doing it a different way when the bees have a format to make it happen their way.

I get too much static when I talk about their preference for brood in a deep when the alternative is a shallow, Or their reluctance to jump the gap in comb at box joints, but both those observations play into my application of the pollen box maneuver. It WORKS.
No protein feeding.

Walt
Wait
Perhaps I did not understand fully but what you suggested makes sense to me. I use 2 deeps. Would I take my second deep when filled with brood and move it below the first or lower deep? o r did I misunderstand?
 
#17 ·
I guess essentially what Walt is recommending is that a brood nest reversal in early summer will result in a better wintering cluster. Are you suggesting this results in more pollen being brought into the hive or just a better orientation of it?
 
#18 ·
Whatever your means of supplementation, there have been several scientific studies done that have concluded that adding probiotics to pollen supplement or syrup increases fat body weight and improves brood health and longevity:

http://ibra.live.subhub.com/articles/20080612_84

"Two probiotics, Biogen-N and Trilac, were used as supplements to pollen substitute in feeding honey bees. The probiotics were given either throughout the entire 14-day experiment or only for 2 days, just after bee emergence. The midgut of worker bees was colonized by bacteria present in probiotics, including Lactobacillus spp., Pediococcus acidilactici, Bifidobacterium bifidum and Enterococcus faecium. Advantages of probiotic supplementation include better bee survival and higher dry mass and crude fat level in comparison with bees fed with pollen substitute only. We did not observe significant differences in total protein in the dry mass of bees. There was no correlation between the duration of feeding with probiotics and the chemical composition of the bees. This suggests that to achieve an increase in dry mass and crude fat level, it is sufficient to supply probiotics only in the beginning of the feeding period, directly after bee emergence."

and:

http://www.jas.org.pl/jas_50_1_2006_2.pdf

"Probiotics added to the substitute were also found to stimulate the growth of fat body. In bees which
received the “pure” substitute the fat body was developed to the least extent and probiotics addition had a statistically significant effect on its better development. . . The probiotic preparations applied in the
study failed to significantly contribute to the increase in feed intake, but affected the decrease in death rate of bees.
Based on the results obtained in this study it can be concluded that the controlled administration of probiotic preparations, containing specified and properly-selected species and strains of lactic acid-producing bacteria, in the pollen substitute affects better feed protein utilization by the body of bee. . ."

and:

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:22459313

"Maintaining bee colonies in a healthy state throughout the year is one of the main concerns of apiculture researchers. The phenomenon of disappearance of bee colonies is determined by several factors, one of which is bee disease. Due to the organizational structure of the bee colony, disease transmission is rapid, especially through infected food or via the nurse worker bees that feed the brood bees of the colony concerned. The practice of stimulating the bee colonies in spring using sugar syrup feeds with added prebiotic products (lactic acid or acetic acid) and probiotics (Lactobacillus acidophilus LA-14 and Bifidobacterium lactis BI-04) by using an Enterobiotic product (Lactobacillus casei), marketed as Enterolactis Plus, for three weeks, resulted in a significant reduction of the total number of bacteria in the digestive tracts of the bees, compared with the control group. By contrast, intestinal colonization with beneficial bacteria contained in probiotics products administered to the bees was observed. This resulted in an improved health status and bio productive index of the bee colonies studied."
 
#19 ·
Hey thanks for starting the thread Squarepeg, very interesting so far!

Based on what's being said, poor wintering may be a lot more to do with pollen malnutrition than a lot of us have realised. Some of the other things that have caught the blame may be more easily dealt with by the bees if they are fully nourished.

Something I've been pondering on lately, is that because a bee receives the bulk of this nutrition while it is a larva, getting sucked on by a varroa mite family while it is pupating is going to deplete it and make it a weaker bee for life. Another one of the insidious evils of these little nasty's, over and above the viruses they transmit.
 
#20 ·
We trap a little pollen in the spring ( collecting olive (old world plant) and a little wild flower now) it goes from the trap to the pollen cleaner then to the deep freeze. I only use pollen I collect and use the it in the same year, it degrades rapidly. Getting ready to start feeding a protein supplement and a little syrup blend with EO's this week it's going to be a long dry summer in CA.
 
#21 ·
Interesting thread. Couple of thiings:
- there is nothing new that pollen provide important nutrition to the bees. Even human use the pollen for exactly the same reason.
- I do not think, that any substitute may actually substitute the real stuff. If I remember properly, pollen substitute is made mostly from corn "meat", yeasts and may be a few percent of real pollen... :(
- honey and pollen complement each other.
- feeding keep bees inside, it could limit their ability to harvest pollen.
 
#22 ·
So anyone not feeding at all must be just lucky with their winter success?:scratch:
Every living animal needs a balanced diet and exercise. Wiled animals don't have to worry about getting exercise they get it from foraging food. Humans watch television and get confused on what a balanced diet and exercise is. Pets and tame animals are at the mercy of confused humans watching television.

Are your bees pets?
 
#24 ·
well said 007,

When doing any feeding whether it's syrup or sub it takes on a different role. Take two hives, ones heavy ones light, feed the light one and see what happens. Do the same with sub, feed the one that's light on pollen stores and you will see two out comes from the non fed hives.

The hive takes on a different role when it feels it's coming in from outside the hive, when in fact, you just syrup or subed it, but the actions taken by the hive is completely different than if it were just stored pollen or honey inside the hive.
 
#26 ·
It's also important to note that different pollens can have vastly different compositions. For those fortunate enough to have bees in an area with a lot of pollen diversity, a sub may not show nearly the same results as a mono cultural areas which, unfortunately, is fast becoming the new normal.
 
#36 ·
The Schmidt study mentioned in this bee culture article found that bees which foraged on Sunflowers live on average for 31 days as opposed to 51 days for bees collecting Canola pollen.

L.S.Schmidt et al, Feeding preference and survival of young worker honey bees fed rape, sesame and sunflower pollen. J. of Econ. Entom. 88(6):1591-1595 (1995).

1995 study4 divided bees into two groups: one fed solely with canola pollen, the other with sunflower pollen:

Pollen Source Life Span of Bees

Canola 51 days

Sunflower 31 days

This study was done well before the advent of CCD and the remarkable 20 day difference in life span could well cause sunflower bees that survived in past years to reach a tipping point in today’s world where they are confronted with the agents of CCD.
 
#32 ·
woodedareas,
You can't Make it happen reliably with double deeps. There is something odd about the deep box and the way the colony uses it. We have all seen it, but perhaps not recognized that it is not like the tree cavity. For instance, they want brood to the bottom bar all the way across the brood nest. Makes for a flat-bottomed brood nest. Since that's what we see, it's "normal', but in the wild brood nest in the vertical tree hollow, the brood nest is rounded on the bottom. I think it has something to do with efficiency in insulating the cluster - a sphere has the least perimeter per contained volume.

If you reverse double deeps, you still have the flat bottom nest. No place to add pollen below. Believe me, we still don't have a hive is based on their instincts.

We didn't see this characteristic until we started gettng much larger brood nests with checkerboarding. When we turned them loose to grow all the brood nest they could in the season time allowed, some colonies were trying to create their pollen reserve below.
To give them a little help, we put the shallow of brood below the deep during buildup in the early season, while the broodnest is growing upward. They readily backfill the shallow with fall beebread. I get some static for the observation that the bees prefer a deep for rearing brood, but this is one application of that preference.

Walt
 
#34 ·
Walt, after they use up the beebread in the bottom box in August, does that become a brood chamber or honey storage or remain empty until we pull it to checkerboard in February? I use all medium 8 frames and remember them filling the bottom one with beebread. But depending on whether they refill it with honey would determine whether I need to go into winter with 3 or 4 boxes. I would think that if they leave it empty, 3 boxes would leave them short on winter stores.
 
#35 ·
tn07,
It goes into winter empty - no stores. If the broodnest is in box 2, immediately above, it depends on whether or not they get the broodnest fully backfilled in the fall. That does not always happen here. Sometimes, when the broodnest doesn't get backfilled, they relocate up on solid capped honey (top box of 3 med). It's your call whether you want to insure in Nov that the broodnest gets backfilled or leave a forth box of honey at the top.
W
 
#39 ·
i'll go out on a limb and say that there are probably no 'substitutes' as good as the real thing, but it may be that 'supplements' could have a positive effect if they help fill in the gaps in cases where the natural forage is lacking.
 
#38 ·
Even if pollen is the main source of nutrients, it doesn't mean that honey isn't a better feed. When I first saw this headline, I thought that it was a bit sad that they had to do it.

http://news.yahoo.com/best-rx-bees-own-honey-214615930.html

There was a time when it was generally accepted that formula was better than breast milk. It's hard to beat thousands/millions of years of evolution.
 
#40 ·
There was a time when it was generally accepted that formula was better than breast milk
Who feeds bees breast milk?

The source of Vitellogenin is easy enough (egg yolk) but how effective can bees digest it and what can be added to improve the efficiency of this protein.

Is there anything to suggest that when bees are given Sub during a time when pollen is available they will target pollens rich in substances they lack?

JimL,
What is needed as additional mite control as a result of feeding protein and what does that look like as practical application in your operation?
 
#41 ·
I would agree that if your bees are in an area with a great abundance of different pollen that is true. Unfortunately the increasing monoculture makes it more and more difficult to get the diversity needed for strong healthy hives. Beekeepers are a pretty bright bunch overall and they are choosing more and more to spend their hard earned money on pollen sub. because they can see it is helping their bees and not because someone is just making claims. A frame of bees rents for $20 in February and a pound of pollen sub. sells for about a buck.
 
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