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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,452

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I would agree that if your bees are in an area with a great abundance of different pollen that is true. Unfortunately the increasing monoculture makes it more and more difficult to get the diversity needed for strong healthy hives. Beekeepers are a pretty bright bunch overall and they are choosing more and more to spend their hard earned money on pollen sub. because they can see it is helping their bees and not because someone is just making claims. A frame of bees rents for $20 in February and a pound of pollen sub. sells for about a buck.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  2. #42
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    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,452

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbeck View Post
    Is there anything to suggest that when bees are given Sub during a time when pollen is available they will target pollens rich in substances they lack?

    JimL,
    What is needed as additional mite control as a result of feeding protein and what does that look like as practical application in your operation?
    Good question about whether they target pollens. My guess is they are after what is most abundant but then I am only guessing. And speaking of guessing, the additional mite control that may be required is pure speculation on my part as well. There is a lot of "don't ask, don't tell" in varroa control. It just makes sense to me that if you choose to keep pushing bees through the fall that some mite issues may arise. To me it's nothing more than simple math that higher populations and longer seasons equates with higher varroa numbers. I have seen operations suffer serious crashes when moving their bees into a different area with abundant late fall and early winter flows.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    If they do effectively target pollens based on nutritional need it would be a very useful tool for developing or improving Sub formulas.

    It does stand to reason that higher populations for longer periods would affect mite populations.

    Simple Math... The Math is simple if you start with the correct numbers and understand them!

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    6,016

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    As bees have been known to collect chicken feed, and sawdust, it may be they are unable to analyse the nutritional value of the pollen they collect. Just speculation though.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Belfast, Ireland
    Posts
    407

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Pollen varies in protein content from less than 10% to over 50% depending on the source.
    I remember reading somewhere that they do not automatically collect the pollen with the highest protein content.
    Some pollens such as canola contain a complete set of the amino acids needed by bees and others are deficient in some.
    Maybe they can collect one to compliment the deficiency in another.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    9,761

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    As bees have been known to collect chicken feed, and sawdust, it may be they are unable to analyse the nutritional value of the pollen they collect.
    Humans crave, donuts, candy, and big mac's so analyzing the nutritional value has little to do with what one eats.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
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    4,111

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    So far this thread has mostly been about protein, but I did an unintentional experiment last summer by not harvesting honey until well into September. Even hives which had lots of honey had extremely curtailed brood production and were generally sad looking. I think that during our severe and Long nectar dearth they saved honey for winter, and suffered from malnutrition despite ample honey on the hives. They didn't starve to death they just went on crash diet. This year I'm pulling honey early and feeding throughout any periods of dearth. Which reminds me I need to get some robber screens....

    Btw, I think the addition of pungent fall nectar made the honey more interesting. My customers love it - or say they do.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    320

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Someone posted this link a couple of years ago, but in case you haven't seen it, it has an incredible amount of bee nutritional information--150 pages including over 40 pages of nutritional analysis of various pollens:

    "Fat Bees, Skinny Bees -a manual on honey bee nutrition for beekeepers" by the Australian government:

    https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-054.pdf

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    The paper above is loaded with information but leaves a lot unanswered.
    Minerals ? Fats lipids? How to balance protiens?

    I do like the line

    " The most important tool a Beekeeper can have is a calculator"

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,191

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Carry on men....
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  11. #51
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,643

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    your killing me keith, we could use a little help here......
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I would like to see tables (all in one place) showing how the various sources of nutrition contribute to productivity.

    I would also like to see some logistic equations included as well.

    That way, you could calculate (approximately) how much feed x, would give you how many bees y. Or, similar relationships.

    I don't recall seeing that all in one place.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Jarrett View Post
    Carry on men....
    As soon as I pick my signature hive color ........

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    One explanation for why the addition of probiotics to pollen subs can enhance nutrition is that the resulting intestinal flora can balance out the nutritional content of the feed since the probiotic strains are producing them from the feed.

    For example, you could take a cheap, nutritionally unbalanced feed source, and the probiotic organism could convert that to a more balanced mix of nutrients in the Honeybee gut.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
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    3,191

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    your killing me keith, we could use a little help here......
    lol... what kind of help you looking for SP?
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
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    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    One explanation for why the addition of probiotics to pollen subs can enhance nutrition is that the resulting intestinal flora can balance out the nutritional content of the feed since the probiotic strains are producing them from the feed.

    For example, you could take a cheap, nutritionally unbalanced feed source, and the probiotic organism could convert that to a more balanced mix of nutrients in the Honeybee gut.
    I'm not sure that there is one magic ingredient that brings everything to a balance. I believe one famous Sub-producer just recently began to add probiotics to thier sub

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,643

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    your formula of course!

    seriously, is there anything you can share to help us hobbiests/sideliners who will never need a truck load of nutra-bee?

    obviously you have something beneficial to strengthen colonies in the fall. i guess i'm a little frustrated that it's not available to me.

    have you considered setting up regional distributors, or making your product available through bee suppy outlets?

    or perhaps bee clubs could put together a group order to reach your mimimum.

    if you are not sold out for the year, can you pm me what you could do on a small quantity shipped to 35768?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Let me run this up the flag pole and see if anyone salutes.

    Since we are doing some rethinking anyways...

    What if you could take cheap HFCS, add probiotics, AND starter nutrients?

    Before everyone moans and groans, just hear me out for a minute.

    There's '24 hour' yeasts that can convert sugar to alcohol very quickly because of the added nutrients.

    So, while we don't want to make ethanol biofuel, we might want to make up some cheap media that can convert HFCS, and some equally cheap nutrients, into a whole lot of nutritionally balanced (let's say so for the sake of argument) liquid probiotic culture.

    Or, am I just being too much of a Biologist?

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
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    3,191

    Big Grin Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    have you considered setting up regional distributors, or making your product available through bee suppy outlets?

    or perhaps bee clubs could put together a group order to reach your mimimum.
    Sp, that is being done as we speak, new smaller 5-50lb cartons & will be out shortly hang in there. I want to make sure everything is done right, I'm not looking to bee the first just the best.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
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    2,025

    Default Re: rethinking bee nutrition

    I'm guessing Mann-Lake will not be the distributor.



    Best of Luck in the new venture.

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