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Ask a Treatment-Free Beekeeper a Question!

19K views 69 replies 20 participants last post by  Solomon Parker 
#1 ·
The last question thread did quite well, ten pages in 6 months! So I'm going to let that one sit in the archives and start a new one.

Feel free to ask questions of a real treatment-free beekeeper. I have a very real desire to help people keep bees treatment-free. To that end, I want to give anybody who wants to know something an open line to ask. I want to be totally transparent and I will tell you just about anything you ask, as long as I have some actual experience on the subject.

So ask. I am here for those with serious questions.
 
#2 ·
I would love to be treatment free, with man made chemicals at least.

So how do you keep mites in check? What do you do about foul brood, and other diseases? These may have been discussed in your previous thread but I didn't know about it until I read this one.
 
#3 ·
Brad, the simple answer is that the bees keep the mites in check. There are a number of mechanisms by which this occurs. The main one is the VSH trait that is so often mentioned, however, survivor feral hives have broadly varying levels of the VSH trait, so there are obviously other traits and mechanisms involved. I do use small cell foundation which a number of people claim helps with mites, however it has been proven in one study and claimed to have been disproved in several others. However, none of those studies looked at the problem under real life conditions.

Other diseases are treated in the same way except American Foul Brood. Should I find any AFB I'll burn the hive in which it is found. Treatments for AFB actually tend to guarantee its return due to killing competing organisms.

I guess you could say the main overall method to compete with these thing is to expand as much as possible so that the disease cannot kill as many hives as are being newly created. I call this Expansion Model Beekeeping. I feel it is far more valuable a skill to know how to efficiently multiply than to be well versed in all the treatments, how and when to use them, the dangers, and etc., only to find them losing their effectiveness after a few years or never having any effectiveness to begin with as the case often is.

But don't let me give you the idea that loads of hives are dying all the time. The Bee Informed National Survey has concluded that treated hives are lost at a rate of 3 in 10 per year while untreated hives are lost at a rate of 4 in 10. So it's not exactly a massacre every year. And in my experience, the effect is lessened in successive years.
 
#11 ·
But don't let me give you the idea that loads of hives are dying all the time. The Bee Informed National Survey has concluded that treated hives are lost at a rate of 3 in 10 per year while untreated hives are lost at a rate of 4 in 10. So it's not exactly a massacre every year. And in my experience, the effect is lessened in successive years.
Is there any data on that which weights for beekeeper experience?
 
#5 ·
Did you really mean to say " expand as much as possible" or did you mean as much as possible while still leaving the parent colony strong? Sorry if that is an obvious question to those of you who are more experienced but in my readings I seem to find a train of thought that says its strictly a numbers game and then differing thoughts about colony strength being more important than numbers . I guess in an ideal world we would strive for both.
 
#6 ·
Let me explain what I find the most efficient. I find grafting into queen cups, raising those cups in queenright cell builders, mating those queens in queen castles (using full size brood frames), and building those nucs up into larger hives, to be the most efficient.

Now I won't say this is necessarily the fastest. There is a limit on the number of cells a queenright hive will raise at one time. I've gotten 17 twice. But it does allow you to use that hive for other things, for honey or a source of brood for mating nucs. So that's why I find it efficient. Other methods can produce much larger numbers of cells, but may cause a bit more disruption. But I doubt a smallholder beekeeper will have the equipment to expand that quickly, so I feel a number in the teens per batch is more than adequate.

One qualifying factor is my location. I have a relatively short beekeeping season. Others have a much longer season, during which time one might use queen castles to produce walkaway splits using single frames of brood. Better or worse? I don't know. Beekeeping is local.

Ultimately though, my message is don't be afraid of grafting. It is an efficient method of producing queens, and do the right thing with those queens and you have an efficient way to produce nucs and nucs become full sized colonies.
 
#7 ·
One other note: Keeping hives as nucs, even for a time, gives them fantastical abilities to draw comb and expand. I believe there is something that has to do with hive size and a drive for the bees to be ready for winter. But smaller hives are incredibly capable of expansion.
 
#8 ·
I am seeing that one already. I installed 2 nucs this spring, one in an 8 frame hive and the other in a 10 frame hive. The 8 frame is filled to capacity with 2 deeps now and the 10 frame is still trying to figure out what to do with the 10 frame box above it. Both nucs came from a supplier that primarily uses 5 frame hives to build his bees. He made mention that the majority of his hives were 5 frame equipment.

My limited knowledge seems to tend toward smaller hives. It seems to encourage them to prosper.
 
#9 ·
i want to be treatment free. i concider treatment free the non use of man made chemicals, the use of a natural product ok. i have heard some people say that dusting bees with suger is a treatment. what do you concider the line between treatment and non treatment ?
 
#10 ·
My line (and this is not the line of the forum) is treatment. If you're doing something to 'help' the bees with disease, be it mites, bacteria, viruses, or fungi, it's a treatment and I don't use it. If you call it a treatment, it is a treatment. There are no "treatment-free treatments." That is a quote that appeared once in this forum.

I use no substances of any kind. I use no special equipment like screened bottom boards or beetle traps. I use no manipulations like brood breaks or systematic splitting.

I do use small cell foundation. However, that is in an attempt to return to a more natural cell size and to decrease human induced stress. You won't see me touting small cell foundation as the panacea solution to problems.

In short, I keep bees like these problems don't exist. That's not to say I am ignorant about them, it is to say I ignore them. That is the bees' job.
 
#12 ·
So, other than small cell and making increase from survivors what are your cultural practices? Do you produce any economically significant hive products? By that I mean does your bee keeping run in the black or the red - if in the red, do you foresee a time when that will change? Is it even a goal? Not trying to be difficult, just asking.
 
#17 ·
JStinson, I feel that you could assume that they display some level of VSH trait, but don't assume that level is high. Tested ferals have shown wide variations in expression of the VSH trait. That's why I don't test for VSH nor rely upon it. There are numerous mechanisms by which bees are able to cope with varroa and I want them to figure it out without too much interference and unnecessary shallowing of the gene pool.

I just started a thread yesterday where I opened the brood from a hive I was working on. This is a hive in which I have never seen the tell-tale signs of chewed out brood or anything like that. Yet, they live and they are doing pretty well. I had a hive in the past that was literally crawling with mites, yet it survived the winter and went on to be a moderately productive nuc in drawing comb. So these are a couple of reasons why I like to let the bees worry about it.
 
#18 ·
Dear Solomon:

If a hive has a laying worker, will they automatically reject a new queen?

Also, I can't find an answer anywhere to this: If a bee is injured, does the bee's body have the ability to heal itself? Is a dent or puncture to the chitin, for example, a death sentence?

Sondra
 
#19 ·
Sondra,

I wouldn't say they would automatically reject a new queen but there's a pretty good chance. Give them a frame or two of open brood to change the character of the pheromones in the hive. Michael Bush's solution for queen problems is adding a frame of open brood every week until the problem corrects itself.

If there's enough force to dent hardened chitin, there's probably enough force to do significant permanent damage. For a worker, who cares, but you're probably asking about a queen. I'll relate this: Last year, I was checking to see if my queens had hatched in their nucs and I smooshed one enough to dent her abdomen. It did not kill her immediately, but she did not survive. She was still soft.

Bees don't heal like we do. Most creatures with exoskeletons need to shed their skeleton to heal. Bees cannot shed. I would postulate that any significant amount of damage will result in death before long. I could be wrong, but that's my hypothesis.
 
#20 ·
Mr. Parker,

I am brand new and have just installed a standard GA package into a top bar hive. In total, my apiary has a hex hive, 2 top bar hives, and 2 Langs. (check out my photo album in my profile if you want to see the setup) The other 4 hives should all get filled with feral local bees that I have arranged to remove or trap out.

#1 - Since the GA package presumably came from 5.4 mm foundation, how long will it take for them to regress to ~4.9? Should I checkerboard the brood nest any this first year to allow them to regress more, or leave it alone until next year?

#2 - My hives are in ski country WV, at around 2900' elevation. Am I accurate in assuming their chances of survival are low, regardless of my practices?

#3 - My package is drawing comb like a machine, and have been in the hive for 1 week today. When should I expect to see eggs and brood? (I haven't really looked yet. The only thing done was to refill the feeder with syrup, and make sure the first couple of combs they started were straight and on the bars.)

Thank you for offering you time and knowledge.

John
 
#21 ·
#1 - Since the GA package presumably came from 5.4 mm foundation, how long will it take for them to regress to ~4.9? Should I checkerboard the brood nest any this first year to allow them to regress more, or leave it alone until next year?
I don't know how long it will take. Keep at it though, if that's your goal. It depends on how you do it and local conditions. I wouldn't worry so much about 'checkerboarding' so much, just add two or so frames of foundation in the middle of the brood nest each spring and work the larger stuff out and up.


#2 - My hives are in ski country WV, at around 2900' elevation. Am I accurate in assuming their chances of survival are low, regardless of my practices?
Not necessarily. Georgia bees might have problems wintering but you won't know until it happens. From my own experience, I can say that Georgia bees don't winter well if you get temps down below 10 degrees. That's what I happened to me.


#3 - My package is drawing comb like a machine, and have been in the hive for 1 week today. When should I expect to see eggs and brood? (I haven't really looked yet. The only thing done was to refill the feeder with syrup, and make sure the first couple of combs they started were straight and on the bars.)
A queen in a hive like that will start laying eggs when the cells are about half depth or so. If there is much comb of that depth, she will have already begun to lay. Probably.
 
#22 ·
Thanks for the quick answers. I have a couple more!

#1 All of my top bars are 1 3/8" wide. Right now they have 8 bars accessible because of the follower board. When I insert new bars (that is what I meant earlier, rather than 'checkerboarding) in the brood nest, would inserting 1 1/4" bars help with the regression? Or should I stick with the 1 3/8" size?

#2 This past weekend, we noticed some German black bees AMM on a very old apple tree blooming. They were extremely small, compared to the Italians that came in the package. I have decided there will be no resting until I find this hive and capture them for my apiary. If/when I can hive them, should I start them out on 1 1/4" bars, 1 3/8" bars, or would you advise putting them in a foundationless Lang? I have both available and in the need of some bees to occupy them.

Also, it gets down to 10 degrees and lower on a regular basis where the hives are.

Thanks,
John
 
#23 ·
1.) It might, I can't say for sure, that's out of my area of expertise. I'm currently debating if I should continue with the narrow frame paradigm. Michael Bush definitely promotes the idea that narrower frames help with regression.

2.) I'm not one who advises going completely foundationless. I have no problem with people who want to do that, but it's just not utilitarian enough for me. I don't have enough time for the extra vigilance those sorts of things take. Personally, I suggest small cell because it's *more natural* than other larger cell size options available. It's not natural, it's not magic, it's just better. Again, I'm currently debating the utility of the narrow frames.

I am interested about these AMM bees, it's always interesting to hear about things like that.
 
#24 ·
I've done some experimenting with some of these things.

I've been using narrow brood frames, and I find that it makes it much harder to do inspections. The tight spacing makes it hard to remove frames without rolling bees. So I find I tend to only remove what I have to. Maybe that's a good thing, but I have now begun to cut down the top bars as well, hoping that will make things easier.

I use 8 frame boxes, so I like the fact that I have room for 9. This allows me to split the boxes and make twin 4 frame nuc boxes. Some of what I'm working toward is in keeping with Mike Palmer's nuc-based approach. So the narrow frames allow me to make the same set-up in an 8-frame deep that he's making in a 10 frame deep.

I have used some foundationless frames, some starter strips and some 5.1mm foundation. I like foundation, but I think foundation strips is a good mid-point approach, as it gets things going straight, but still allows the bees to create natural cells beyond that.

A full box of foundationless gets messy...

Adam
 
#25 ·
Solomon,

Brand new at this and have really had my eyes opened after having found this TF forum and learning about this philosophy of beekeeping. I have decided that I want to start out being treatment free and learning as much as I can from the experience. They are coming from Rossman and my inquiry to them regarding treatment was as follows:

We treat early Spring and late Fall with, Apivar for varroa, Tylan for foul brood, Fumagilin-B for Nosema and Honey-B-Healthy for a stimulant. Also we treat with apple cider vinegar and vegetable oil for small hive beetle.

Knowing what I know now, I would likely not be picking up package bees on Sunday, but would have sought out other local resources in my area for TF bees. Nonetheless, the treated bees are on their way and I intend on learning everything I can.

I am starting out with a 2 deep hive. It has wooden frames with Rite-cell foundation. I have been considering removing the foundation and using popsicle sticks wedged into the top of the frames for a comb guide.
I am planning on feeding with sugar syrup to start using the Ziploc bag method. I will enclose the bag in an empty deep hive until combs are drawn out.

Prior to all this information I have been learning re: TF I was planning on starting them using all the “standard” techniques to include all the treatment regimens, etc.

I am now somewhat questioning myself and am looking for some feedback as to my attempt to begin being a TF beekeeper with package bees vs. going traditional and seeking out new sources of bees next spring.

Thanks in advance,

Scott
 
#28 ·
My situation is exactly the same, although I knew from the start local bees were better. I just didn't want to have nothing, if the bee trees or swarms didn't pan out and have to wait til next year to start up.
 
#26 ·
Scott, you're not the first to have to approach this question in this way! Unfortunately, it is still the case that many people don't know that treatment free is even an option. It is unfortunate but true.

Okay, there is some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that you're starting a marathon with a missing foot. The good news is that there is a small chance you can grow that foot back. Somebody is going to hate me for that one. If you want to go totally treatment free, you're going to have to accept that this particular method of starting (treated package) is probably going to hiccup. This package will more likely than not die this winter. I just want to tell you that right at the beginning because that's about the worst it can get. Still more good news, you can get a lot of value from this endeavor, even if it does die. Number one, you get experience, valuable experience. Number two, you have a hive, and it will have drawn comb which will be pretty well protected due to your climate and ready for next year. Three, you have the opportunity to be more prepared for next year, to do things like catch swarms, find better sources of bees, and not make the mistakes you'll make this year.

Until then, don't treat. Most treatments will leave residues in your comb and especially with foul brood, actually increase the chances of an outbreak in the future.

Now, maybe you're more ambitious. Maybe you'd like to expand now, split, try to catch a swarm. Then you need to move fast, need more equipment, more research, splitting, feeding, brood breaks, give yourself more chances for the upcoming winter.

So the question is, where do you want to go from here?
 
#27 ·
One additional comment is that if you can find a source of local queens, you could introduce local genetics to you colony and increase your chances of surviving the winter.
 
#29 ·
Now, maybe you're more ambitious. Maybe you'd like to expand now, split, try to catch a swarm. Then you need to move fast, need more equipment, more research, splitting, feeding, brood breaks, give yourself more chances for the upcoming winter.

So the question is, where do you want to go from here?
Yes, I like the way your are challenging my thinking. Thank you for your entire reply. I am feeling even more optimistic about this endeavor now. I will keep in touch. Off to do more research and pondering.

Scott
 
#32 ·
Yes, I'm sorry, I should have mentioned the possibility of requeening. Thanks Dan.

Even then, I'd recommend splitting and putting the new queen with the split. Anything you can do to decrease the chances of losing everything at once. You want something to be able to split from next year. It's looking like 30% of all kept hives in the country were lost last year, probably 40% of untreated ones. So that means, in a single winter, you'd have a 40% chance of losing a single hive, but only a 16% chance of losing both if I'm doing my math correctly.

In comparison, long term treatment-free beekeepers lose far fewer. I know a beekeeper (well known former state inspector etc. etc.) who averages less than 8%. And I personally lost less than 5%. But getting off the ground is rough, and you're pretty far north which doesn't make things easier, especially starting with storebought packages, most of which come from the south.
 
#33 ·
One thing I'm constantly hearing, but does not make sense to me, is that if you start with a commercial package you are likely to lose it.

So I'd like opinions from several experienced TF beeks. If the package was requeened with a queen from say, Solomon, in time for all the bees to be replaced before winter, is it still more likely that hive would die, than if the package had come from a TF source.

And if so, why?
 
#37 ·
Oldtimer,

I am not saying that my package is doomed for failure or anything of the sort, but am being realistic about the chances of survival. Especially compared to the local feral stock that I am seeking. The climate that the bees are living in has a much harsher winter than what is typical for most of WV, and the elevation is near 3,000'. The bees I purchased came from the south and from an elevation of around 100'. They have also lived through many generations of bees that have a strict treatment regimen in place. The only thing they are getting from me is sugar syrup and, hopefully, regression back to natural size.

Nature has a way of making it somehow, but the gamblers odds on these bees as compared to ones I can find myself in the woods are much smaller.

By the way, I am coming to your 'hood in the fall for a vacation!
 
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