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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
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    Florence, Mississippi, USA
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    71

    Question Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    About a month ago I split a queenless hive and gave each half a new bought Russian queen. I just checked on these two hives and could not find either bought queen. They both have some capped brood, but nothing like they should have with a well mated bought queen. Please look at the pictures below of Hive A and Hive B and let me know what you think. (you can click on the pictures to open a larger version if you want too)

    Hive A









    Hive B







    3rd year with bees. 8 hives.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    3,853

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Some worker, but it looks like severe K-wing and mites

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Rockford, MI
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    3,401

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Yeah.... those hives need attention.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Hopkins, MI USA
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    514

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    Some worker, but it looks like severe K-wing and mites
    What is K-wing?

    Update~ I spotted the K-wing.....what causes it?
    zone 5b - 11 hives
    Beginning beekeeping www.beekhq.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
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    Florence, Mississippi, USA
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    71

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Beeman View Post
    Yeah.... those hives need attention.
    What kind of attention? New Queen? Treatment? Combine? Shake out? Can I still use the brood comb?
    3rd year with bees. 8 hives.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Florence, Mississippi, USA
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    71

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    Some worker, but it looks like severe K-wing and mites


    I see the K-wing now that you pointed it out? Can you see mites? Or do you just know they are there because of the K-wing?
    3rd year with bees. 8 hives.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Norfolk, Nebraska, USA
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    252

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Where are you seeing the K wing and what do you look for. Also where are you seeing mites?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Florence, Mississippi, USA
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    71

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    I've got two other strong hives, two more started from packages a couple of weeks ago, and two more started from packages about 6 weeks ago. Should I use resources from my other hives to try to fix these two? These two started as a beeweaver nuc last summer and developed into quite a strong hive going into winter. I don't know what happened to the beeweaver queen from this hive.
    3rd year with bees. 8 hives.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Warrior, Alabama
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    1,104

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Normal wing are folded together over the back one on top of the other.
    K-wing the wings stick out from the body like the letter "k".
    K-wing indicates a virus. there is no cure for infected bees. They may not be able to fly at all.
    They will never become effective foragers.
    The virus is normally transmitted by mites.
    Treat for mites.
    With mites gone/reduced the infection subsides.
    New bees should be normal.
    Good luck.
    Old Guy in Alabama

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Florence, Mississippi, USA
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    71

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Quote Originally Posted by jrbbees View Post
    Normal wing are folded together over the back one on top of the other.
    K-wing the wings stick out from the body like the letter "k".
    K-wing indicates a virus. there is no cure for infected bees. They may not be able to fly at all.
    They will never become effective foragers.
    The virus is normally transmitted by mites.
    Treat for mites.
    With mites gone/reduced the infection subsides.
    New bees should be normal.
    Good luck.
    Varroa mites? Tracheal mites? Both?
    3rd year with bees. 8 hives.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Diamond, Ohio, USA
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    34

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    From what I have read K-wing may be caused by tracheal mites or nosema.
    Last edited by jk3campbell; 05-27-2015 at 08:21 AM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    Sacramento, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    It's trachael, but your brood pattern looks like severe PMS by varroa in Hive B. The only other conclusion about the wing posture is they were flitting their wings constantly because they're queenless when you were taking pictures.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Evansville, IN
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    2,887

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Bad queen, and likely they superceded your Russian.

    That is a nice queen cell about to open, you probably don't have a queen in there at the moment, and a bad laying pattern similar to my poorly growing hive.

    I may treat mine for mites, using formic acid, it's cheap and easy this time of year and that might fix the crappy brood.

    Or a new queen, since they have never done as well as I think they should have starting last spring with the package.

    I wonder if an excessive mite load results in that type of laying pattern? Sort of mosaic, with fairly regular patterns of brood in six or eight cell groups, looks exactly like my badly behaving hive....

    Come to think of it I may just look up oxalic acid dribble, I have some and the weather should be good tomorrow....

    Peter

  14. #14
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    Apr 2011
    Location
    Pottstown, Pennyslvania, USA
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    529

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Formic would take care of both the tracheal and varroa mites.
    Dan Boylan, When in doubt "It's mites".

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Clinton, Iowa
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    2,171

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Quote Originally Posted by psfred View Post
    Bad queen, and likely they superceded your Russian.

    That is a nice queen cell about to open, you probably don't have a queen in there at the moment, and a bad laying pattern similar to my poorly growing hive.

    I may treat mine for mites, using formic acid, it's cheap and easy this time of year and that might fix the crappy brood.

    Or a new queen, since they have never done as well as I think they should have starting last spring with the package.

    I wonder if an excessive mite load results in that type of laying pattern? Sort of mosaic, with fairly regular patterns of brood in six or eight cell groups, looks exactly like my badly behaving hive....

    Come to think of it I may just look up oxalic acid dribble, I have some and the weather should be good tomorrow....

    Peter
    Why not OAV? Dribble seems like a pain to me, but I've never done it. You can whip up a vaporizer out of copper pipe and a propane/butane/MAPP torch in about 2 minutes.

  16. #16
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    Apr 2013
    Location
    Florence, Mississippi, USA
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    71

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    It's trachael, but your brood pattern looks like severe PMS by varroa in Hive B. The only other conclusion about the wing posture is they were flitting their wings constantly because they're queenless when you were taking pictures.
    Thanks, I did is search for PMS and Varroa because the only PMS I knew about is the kind my wife gets.

    I found some pictures of brood comb affected by PMS or Parasitic Mite Syndrome and you are right, my pattern does resemble those pictures.
    3rd year with bees. 8 hives.

  17. #17
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    Apr 2013
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    Florence, Mississippi, USA
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    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Quote Originally Posted by psfred View Post
    Bad queen, and likely they superceded your Russian.

    That is a nice queen cell about to open, you probably don't have a queen in there at the moment
    Yep, I was so sad that both of these hives rejected the expensive Russian queens that I ordered from Kelley Beekeeping. That queen cell will have probably hatched by the time I get back to these hives on Friday evening or Saturday.

    I'm planning on picking up 3 more Russian queens from Hubert Tubbs in Mize, MS on Saturday morning. What will happen if I put a new Queen in Hive B and then the virgin queen that just hatched returns from her mating flights? Should I wait until I can find and pinch her to re-queen this hive?
    3rd year with bees. 8 hives.

  18. #18
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    Apr 2013
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    Florence, Mississippi, USA
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    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Quote Originally Posted by psfred View Post
    I may treat mine for mites, using formic acid, it's cheap and easy this time of year and that might fix the crappy brood.
    Quote Originally Posted by DPBsbees View Post
    Formic would take care of both the tracheal and varroa mites.
    Formic acid is what is in the MAQS isn't it? How is it "cheap and easy"? Are you making your own formic acid pads to put in your hives? If so, how is this done?

    I looked at some treatments and I think I'm going to go with the OAV method to treat for my Varroa mites. Should I just treat these two failing hives or go ahead and treat all my hives? What about the new packages that were just installed?

    I bought Russians because I liked the idea of having Varroa tolerant bees and not having to treat, but I am quite willing to treat as much as needed too keep my bees alive and productive.
    3rd year with bees. 8 hives.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Florence, Mississippi, USA
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    71

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    Quote Originally Posted by jwcarlson View Post
    Why not OAV? Dribble seems like a pain to me, but I've never done it. You can whip up a vaporizer out of copper pipe and a propane/butane/MAPP torch in about 2 minutes.
    Do you treat with OAV with this "copper pipe/torch" method? How is it done? I'm leaning toward the car battery powered vaporizers that are available to order, but I've already got some old copper pipe and a butane torch.
    3rd year with bees. 8 hives.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Santa barbara, CA
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    404

    Default Re: Is this worker brood or drone brood?

    K wing when the hamuli don't connect the two wings on one or both sides of the bees, usually due to tracheal mites. I'm not seeing more than one. (my humble opinion)

    If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.
    Abraham Maslow

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