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quality of 2013 package queens from GA/AL?

27K views 115 replies 31 participants last post by  BeeGuy54 
#1 · (Edited)
I was told that package queen problems (from GA/AL) seem a bit worse this year, probably influenced by hard winter and cold spells into April. What are experiences good or bad? I have read the messages about problems with queen raising -- my question is does it seem that more delivered packages/queens are having trouble.
 
#2 ·
I bought them from Kelley, which gets them from Hardemans in GA. I hived my packages Saturday, they were released Monday, and I had eggs Wednesday. They are doing pretty good in my view. Even the extra carni and Italian that I got are running the same line as the Russian packages.
 
#4 ·
There were several loads of packages coming in to Northern Virginia. The late March packages that came in to Virginia which were packaged during the time GA experienced a real drop in temperature were the worst I have ever seen. While a small percentage of failures may be due to beekeeper error or the cold- we are surveying our student class to try and have some hard facts. Off the top of my head I can tell you that 20% had queens dead on arrival, several of the queens died after install in the cage suggesting a queen or virgin queen was shaken in to the package, and several have turned into laying workers- again suggesting a virgin queen who came up North and could not mate due to lack of flying weather and lack of drones. My best guess without the hard data is a nearly 50% or more total failure rate. Thank goodness we have an active nuc program and most had ordered a local nuc. The only good thing I can say is that a year like this feeds our sustainability model promoting making bees from your own bees.
 
#5 ·
Hey Karla,

I also got packages this spring. I suspect from the same supplier. My packages arrived on March 20th out of Wilbanks, and yes very cold temps. Although some of these struggled, none were lost and no queens were lost. These packages were to give a quick boost to my queen rearing activities. So, 100% success on 36 packages. Some of the queens look fantastic, others are just OK, a few are poor, but all alive. Nothing too noteworthy. BTW, I purged all drones out of these packages as I did not want lots of unknown boys hanging around. Also, all bees seem very well-behaved. Achieving 100% success didn't just fall into my lap, it took all of my experience and lots of effort to make it happen. I suspect that losses in the hands of newbees would have been pretty dramatic. Cold weather installs wasn't something I had done before, but having gotten through it I learned some things. I tried to capture these and reported them here on beesource. See thread : http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...esults&highlight=cold+weather+package+install

Had the temps been more like our typical March, I have not doubt that I'd be bursting with bees right now. As it turned out, the cold temps set my schedule back some but things are now progressing well.
 
#7 ·
Located in MD, USA. Received 10 packages from GA on April 6th and installed them all within 18 hours of being shaken. They all looked great and had very active and alert queens. All were set for colony release queens, and all were given 1 gallon cans of feed. The weather did take some overnight dips into freezing range and has been fairly inconsistent. All were given some built comb and some honey frames, half were started in 5 frame equipment, the others in 10 frame. Out of 10 packages, 1 did not release the queen and a replacement queen was obtained and released immediately. Of the 10 packages and 10 released queens, 6 are viable colonies. 2 started in 5 frame equipment are the strongest, and one of them was split. 4 are happily raising drones via workers, released queens were no where to be seen, and the other 4 are struggling but seem viable. The packages dwindle until the first brood emerges, so I suspect that the 6 will survive. One of them, the smallest of the 6 were only covering 1/3 of 5 frames, the queen was active and seemed in control, there were fresh eggs in worker cells, but there was also a sixth frames where there was a small pocket of workers that were obviously anarchists and raising their own drones via laying worker, i.e., cells with multiple (3-4) eggs per cell. At nearly the 1 month mark, I am at 60% 2013 package success. Will probably combine the 4 duds with other colonies this weekend, and hope that warmer and more stable weather turns the tide for the remaining colonies.
 
#8 ·
I received two packages on March 30 from GA. I live near Philadelphia. Packages were nasty from the getgo. One package never had any eggs produced, the other had partial laying (50 cells) and supercedure procedings. Could find neither queen which were marked and clipped. Packages were released on drawn comb with plenty of stores and feeding. Tried to find replacement queens but was tough because so early in season. Cut out supercedure cells and finally reqeened on April 26th. 5 days later released queens from push in cage. with good acceptance-- i did NOT use a Southern queen from the same source i got my packages. lol in one hive i noticed i had eggs/larvae in the hive at time of queen release....strange since 5 days earlier upon queen introduction saw nothing. Didnt look like worker laying...
Going to let things be and recheck in about 10 days--both hives starting to bring in pollen whereas before rather listless and aggressive.
 
#10 ·
The primary issue this year has been poor weather for mating flights in the south. All of the suppliers have been having trouble with poorly mated queens. If the queens can't fly they don't get mated.

In years like this you see improvement as the season progresses. March queens may have high fail rates, but by May the weather is improved enough that the queens get properly mated.

I always try and encourage people to order packages later in the season, but year after year we are under constant pressure to go earlier and earlier. Everybody wants their bees early and they start yelling if there are any delays.
 
#11 ·
Yes, there are more queen problems this year, Its been really cold and nasty in GA and queens have suffered. FYI despite the claims of the NUC sellers, packages are not any worse off. Many of these nucs are nothing more than a new queen with some brood from another hive. A good nuc will have been laying for a month first, and when a 5 rame nuc is placed next to a new package the growth rate is pretty much identical.

My packages this year had a bit over 20% queen issues. Nucs have been running around 18%.... the only difference is that the nucs get weeded out before they get to customers. which is why the price is twice as much.

I belive a lot of the queen issues have been due to the queen getting chilled at some point. In my experince anytime the queen gets chilled (guess being she gets colder than 60 ish )she goes sterile..... never done any test to prove it, just noticed it.
 
#12 ·
Hands down a quality Nuc is better than a good package of bees. The problem I see with Nucs is that only about 10% of what is produced are quality Nucs. There are a lot of rather newish beeks making and selling Nucs now days. Not that they are intentionally scamming anybody, but it is way too easy to throw 5 frames in a box, add a mail order queen, and sell it for $130.00 to the droves of people who are willing to hand over the cash to get a nuc.

Package bees on the other hand are produced by people who's livelihood depends on their success. All of the producers are relatively well known and operate off of reputation and experience.
 
#14 ·
70.... Last 2 years its was effectivly 0..... so I am not upset its farming.. Bluegrass, nice to see you not bashing package guys... but I would disagree with the claimed supeiority of nucs. In side by side test of 10 each, there was no diffence at the end of the season for mites or honey production.
 
#17 ·
Bluegrass, nice to see you not bashing package guys... but I would disagree with the claimed supeiority of nucs. In side by side test of 10 each, there was no diffence at the end of the season for mites or honey production.
That would require I bash my self as I am a package guy. I am currently sitting in Baxley GA with a truck and trailer waiting to pickup at Mike's place in the AM.
 
#24 ·
Anyone's personal experience is just so much anecdotal evidence, but for what it is worth our local club bought 135 packages from wilbanks in ga. Scheduled delivery was April 1 but because of Weather was pushed back to April 13. We also got 5 extra queens as insurance - which I banked for a week until everyone had time to make an inspection. 1 out of 135 had a queen problem that I heard about. "3" pound packages were probably closer to 4 pounds of bees, queens were quickly accepted, and so far good layers. So it's not all bad out of Georgia.

Something to consider is that you are probably a lot less likely to get a brood disease along with a package. It is fairly likely that nucs - even from a good supplier - will come on well used comb. If you wanted to compare nucs to packages then install 1 1/2 package per hive - similar price to a 5 frame nuc. I haven't tried it but an $85 package compare to a $125 nuc is sure not apples and apples.
 
#26 ·
Wilbanks produces good packages, but he has become notorious for delays even in the best of weather.

The package guys in GA are for the most part a good group of guys. (there is one wife you have to watch out for ;)) I have had very few problems from any of them and most will go out of their way to keep their customers happy. I predominantly buy from 2 suppliers, but I spread the wealth around to some of the smaller guys also. I don't buy from Wilbanks any longer because I think he has more business than he can really support at this point and there are other guys who are able to fill my needs in a more timely manner.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Mike

I am sure what you produce is likely quality nucs. I don't know for sure because I was unable to get any to try. The fact that your demand is so great is indicative of your product.

On the other hand I recall a thread on here about a month ago about some queens a member claimed they purchased from you last fall and all failed to take the nucs through the winter. The person was quick to take the blame for the failures themselves though so I guess you will not be sending them replacements?

Each have their place... Some people do not want to spend the nearly $200.00 that Betterbee charges for one of (your) nucs. I hear from people all the time who say "if they are going to die anyway, I might as well buy the cheaper version" indicating that the nucs they bought the year before didn't winter well either. And even if you throw in all nuc producers together they fall far short of filling the void that the 750,000 packages produced in the USA every year fill.

The fact of the matter is that the majority of the packages I sell per year are sold to new beekeepers who are in their first or second year. It is true that they often end up replacing those packages the next year. It is also true that I can put together step by step instructions on taking care of a package of bees in order to be successful with them and people still completely disregard the directions and go queen hunting on a daily basis, direct release queens because somebody told them it was okay to do it that way. etc etc etc.
 
#60 ·
On the other hand I recall a thread on here about a month ago about some queens a member claimed they purchased from you last fall and all failed to take the nucs through the winter. The person was quick to take the blame for the failures themselves though so I guess you will not be sending them replacements?
Well I read the thread you site. Hmmm...you say all the queens failed. Not what I read....

"I did some late splits. October and November I fed them all winter so far. lost some but less than 10 percent."

Now first...I can't remember ever selling queens in October and November. My last catches are in early to mid-August.
And second...making splits in October and November is a bit much even with fresh queens. If he used my queens, they were banked by him.

Bluegrass, you seem to be trying awfully hard to discredit me and my work. Grasping at straws, eh?
 
#29 ·
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?277473-1-laying-queen-60-bees

They rarely call me either. Most often I hear about package failures the following year when they order replacements. Drone layers usually are a pretty insignificant issue with packages in most years. Often I don't hear about it at all... I have developed a 5th sense for knowing when somebody lost their bees but for what ever reason play it up about how great the bees were and they want more...

I was supposed to pickup 500 packages last Monday and received a call from Gardner that he wanted to give the queens an extra week because the weather has been poor in GA. I really can't ask for much more than that. If conditions are bad they do what they can to work around that just like you and I do.

Just out of curiosity: when was the last time you used a package to fill one of your hives? I don't have any available this season, but let me put you down for some for next season and give them a shot so you can make a more objective opinion on their quality. I will barter them to you for a nuc.
 
#38 ·
Just out of curiosity: when was the last time you used a package to fill one of your hives? I don't have any available this season, but let me put you down for some for next season and give them a shot so you can make a more objective opinion on their quality. I will barter them to you for a nuc.
Probably 25 years ago. 75 packages from York Bee Co...came 90% dead.
 
#33 ·
I have gone thru nearly 100 packages and you could not pay me to use packages again. Some years the supersedure rate would be 75%.

In every business there are crooked suppliers. The value of meeting the guy you are buying from and the bees being local are a tremendous plus.

Nucs have served me well and every beekeeper I have helped who has made the switch have all been blown away how much more success prone the bees were.

Every one has an opinion but I'd rather take 10 good nucs than 40 packages any day.
 
#34 ·
I guess we should all stop selling packages and everybody can vie for the limited number of nucs available and we can see what demand does to nuc prices? Will the US bee industry survive when a nuc costs $450.00, $600,00 $1000,00?

I have surveyed survival myself and it is impossible to get consistent data without doing it under controlled conditions. Surveys get filled out inconsistently due to peoples interpretation of the questions and definitions. Even when I attempted to do controls myself the picture gets muddled by general management and other factors. Bear attacks, swarming, supercedure. Robbing, mite loads, treatments, no treatments.... Too many other factors come into play to really track any good data...

Then something occurred to me... Of all the samples from dead hives I have sent into the bee lab over several years... not once was the cause of death "started from package". There are always some identifiable cause of death and often those causes are the same in both package started and nuc started deadouts.
 
#62 ·
I guess we should all stop selling packages and everybody can vie for the limited number of nucs available and we can see what demand does to nuc prices? Will the US bee industry survive when a nuc costs $450.00, $600,00 $1000,00?
Nope, sell all the packages you want. They have their place. But I'll be teaching folks how to raise their own bees and keep their hives full, without buying anything except queens...and those from local queen producers...support your local queen producers.
 
#35 ·
i've never tried a package, only nucs.

it only makes sense that you could have more confidence with success with a colony that is already queenright, has comb, and is expanding.

meeting the guy and getting to look at the brood pattern were big plusses for me.

but i understand the availability factor.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Thanks squarepeg for your honest statement.

The divide on this topic is completely biased around here due to the fact that many who unbudgenly back one product or the other either #1. earn income selling one or the other like MP and I. #2. Have experience with only one or the other.

Kamon: A queen cannot be raised in a package at all. The method for raising package queens is the same as the methods nuc producers use. The queens that come in my packages are all pulled from their matting nucs the day before I deliver them and placed in their cages in the packages. Also many many nucs are made up with queens bought through package producers. That is especially true in the north where we can't produce a queen early enough to make a nuc... So if the nuc isn't over wintered like MP does it is likely headed up by an introduced queen bought from a breeder somewhere warmer.

In the northeast there is also a lot of southern nucs being brought in from down south to supplement "local" nuc availability. Many guys are honest about the fact that the nucs they sell come from down south, but I know of several who are not.

Of course none of this matters in your situation because of your location.

And for $90.00 I would buy nucs also. $90.00 isn't a realistic price in my area... $130.00 is the low end and up to around $175.00.
 
#42 ·
The divide on this topic is completely biased around here due to the fact that many who unbudgenly back one product or the other either #1. earn income selling one or the other like MP and I. #2. Have experience with only one or the other.
I don't think so. Three out of the four surveys mentioned, compare nucs and packages. But you seem to want to discount the surveys too.
 
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