Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 158
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
    Posts
    641

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Borderbeeman - I would be interested in hearing your answer to Mr. Palmer's question. If you do answer him, please use facts rather than hysteria.
    --shinbone
    (3rd year, 9 hives, Zone 5b, 5400 ft, 15.8" annual rainfall)

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Edinburgh, UK
    Posts
    223

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    I have no idea.
    Maybe you should look at your varroa treatment. I have had varroa since 1998 and I cannot recall ever "losing a hive to varroa" since I began Integrated Pest Management back in about 2000.

    You should get up to speed on the research of Dr Jeff Pettis of the USDA Beltsville lab and also the parallel but independent research of Dr Cedric Alaux from France.

    Both of them discovered something quite remarkable. They fed bees a minute dose of neonics - about 1-3ppb of Imidacloprid, at a level they would find in nearby crops. Then they exposed the treated bees to a mild infection with Nosema Ceranae - a bacterial pathogen. The control colonies who were NOT neonics were also exposed to the same levels of Nosema.

    The results were very dramatic.
    All the colonies which had been fed Imidacloprid collapsed and died of Nosema.
    In the colonies which had NOT been fed Imidacloprid, none of the colonies died, even though their exposure to Nosema was the same.

    The conclusion, from both Pettis and Alaux was that neonics, evena t the level of just a few parts per billion, cause the bees'immune system severe damage - leaving them open to infection by viruses, bacteria, fungal diseases.

    NEONICS MAY BE THE HIV OF THE BEE WORLD
    In this sense neonics appear to work like HIV did in humans. In the early 1990s doctors in San Francisco could not understand why they were seeing hundreds of homosexual men, sying of a weird range of illnesses: pneumonia, hepatitis, tuberculosis, cancer, Kaposi's sarcoma. It was bewildering. The only thing they had in common was that they were gay.
    Later they discovered the HIV virus in theis systems. They realised that HIV actually destroyed the Immune System in these men, leaving them open to a massive range of infections, which killed them. The men APPEARED to die from cancer, pneumonia, hepatitis etc - but the reality was that they were being killed by HIV. because they HAD NO IMMUNE SYSTEM.

    Pettis and Alux's work points to a similar process. Neonics destroy the immune system of bees; there are varroa in the hive and they carry viruses and bacteria. The bees also lose their social communication and grooming ability under the impact of neonics - so they stop grooming mites etc. Result - massive explosion of varroa mites; explosion of viral, bacterial and fungal disease - the beekeeper assumes his hive died of varroa.

    It didn't - it died because the bees were poisoned by neonics which destroyed their immune system. the varroa, viruses and bacteria were just 'opportunists' - once the door was kicke in they just invade and take over.

    EPILOGUE
    Pettis discovered something even more remarkable. When he examined the dead bees which had been fed Imidacloprid - and which died of Nosema infection - he was not able to find a single trace of imidacloprid in the pathology of the dead bees - even though he KNEW they had been dosed with this neonic.

    His conclusion was that this was a perfect poison; it kills and leaves no trace whatever, even if you have the best lab in America. Dr Henk Tennekes concluded from all this that:

    "There is NO SAFE LEVEL OF EXPOSURE FOR BEES; ANY EXPOSURE DAMAGES THE IMMUNE SYSTEM"

    This may give you some insight into why your bees are 'dying of varroa'

    Hope this helps/

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
    Posts
    641

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Lol! Borderbeeman didn't even answer the question.
    --shinbone
    (3rd year, 9 hives, Zone 5b, 5400 ft, 15.8" annual rainfall)

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Panama City, Florida, USA
    Posts
    450

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Borderbeeman, you are writing fiction. Post a link to the report that states what you state. The study I read from Alaux was nothing close to what you state. The study I read showed that N. ceranae killed more bees than did the neonictinoid. The imicolprid did effect the bees but to a lesser amount than the N. ceranae. The combination of the two was more lethal. But the infection of the Nosema also caused the bees to consume more of the tainted sucrose. So larger mortality percentage might be a foregone conclusion.

    Post the link to the study that supports your statement if you disagree.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,424

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Borderbeeman, through this thread and another one, I've asked you a number of questions, being quite reasonable, and on topic. You have steadfastly ignored them. Why?

    What's to hide?

    Can we not have a conversation, rather than a series of lectures?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Crystal Water, Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    888

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    I'm reading with interest - out in the wild bush where I live here in Australia.
    Oldtimer - could you please give me the Botanical names for manuka and kanuka and I will be able to tell you what we have here and if it is the same.
    Must go - my sheela just called me - the roo stew is ready.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Belfast, Ireland
    Posts
    360

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post

    You should get up to speed on the research of Dr Jeff Pettis of the USDA Beltsville lab
    Maybe it's you who needs to get up to speed with what Jeff Pettis thinks, although I suspect you are just selectively quoting some of his comments as you have done many times before. He made it quite clear that what he saw in the lab he was not observing in the field.

    Today, however the leading American researcher who linked the insecticides to outbreaks of bee diseases told Channel 4 News that what he saw in the lab doesn't occur in working hives.

    "The lab study certainly seemed very clear that low levels of pesticides were impacting on honey bee health. But when we look in the field we don't see the same results. Even when colonies that were exposed to low levels we're not seeing outbreaks of the gut parasite pathogen that we saw in the lab," said Dr Jeff Pettis of the US Agricultural Research Service.
    Pettis also posted this as a comment below an article in the Independent Newspaper which inferred some dark conspiracy and misrepresented what he had claimed.

    > 'I noticed in your article that there is an implication that my research
    >findings are perhaps being suppressed by the chemical industry. As the author
    >of this study, I can tell you that the truth is that the review process on the
    >paper has simply been lengthy, as is often the case, due to various factors,
    >but that no outside forces are attempting to suppress this scientific
    >information. The findings of an interaction between low level pesticide
    >exposure and an increase in the gut pathogen Nosema were not unexpected; many
    >such interactions are likely within the complex life of a honey bee colony. It
    >is not possible to make a direct comparison with a lab study and what might
    >occur in the field. Lab studies can give us insights into what may be occurring
    >with beehives but we have yet to make this link. Honey bee health is complex
    >and our findings support this. They do not provide a direct link to CCD colony
    >losses but these results do provide leads for further study. Jeff Pettis
    Bbman just recycles this stuff over and over on all the bee forums worldwide and even when he is corrected on one, he will put out the erroneous claim somewhere else where he thinks he will get away with it.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,424

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by max2 View Post
    my sheela just called me .
    Better put the shrimp on the barby.

    Manuka = Leptospermum scoparium

    Kanuka = Kunzea ericoides

    Haven't heard back from the Manuka big guns yet, but some people lower up the totem pole have told me that Borderbeeman is correct, kinda.

    Australian honey industry has re-named your Teatree honey, to the Maori (a language not even spoken in Australia) Manuka. So they can jump on the Kiwi shirt tails LOL , and sell their product as Manuka. The honey itself does not have the same properties as quality NZ Manuka, the GMO rating is much lower, but by the looks of that advertisement they are not shy to charge an arm and a leg for it regardless.

    Last time I was talking about this with someone from local industry, he was was adamant they would not let the Aussies sell their honey as Manuka, but looks like you guys have somehow outsmarted us.

    So I owe Borderbeeman an apology. He is right, and he is more up to date than me.

    But hey. Aussies speaking Maori?

    It will be interesting to see, if now there is a buck in it, Aussies will descend into "Manuka wars", like has been going on here. Kind of like the drug trade. Hive thefts, poisonings, assaults, kidnappings. Yup, where there's money......

    For you guys in the US who may doubt this, check this advertisement. 20+ UMF Manuka honey being retailed for what works out to better than US$200.00 a pound. Worth killing to get a site? My hives are either on or near Manuka, they are well camouflaged, and I have cameras.

    http://www.comvita.co.nz/health-food...uka-honey.html

    So now I've fully apologised Borderbeeman, it is only right you respond in the same spirit by answering a few of my questions. Let's have a conversation!
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-08-2013 at 03:54 AM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,449

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    ... So I owe Borderbeeman an apology. He is right, and he is more up to date than me....
    Very noble! I wish others will apologize for ignorance and unfounded acquisitions. One do not need to visit Australia to have a knowledge... by reading... This game is over because EU already made a decision. EPA would never follow the Europe, so game is over
    Серёжа, Sergey

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,449

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    .... I asked you which you would consider worse. DDT, or Neonicitiniods. I repeat the question.
    What is better, KCN or ricin? KCN is "old" and reliable, ricin is new (relatively) and do not leave traces - one molecule is enough to kill the cell...
    Серёжа, Sergey

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Belfast, Ireland
    Posts
    360

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    cerezha. The European ban is for some, not all neonicotinoids for use on some, not all crops.
    The suspension of Imidacloprid, Clothianidin and Thiamethoxam is for two years and comes into force in December 2013.

    What do you mean by 'game is over' ?

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,449

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    ...What do you mean by 'game is over' ?
    Decision has been made: there is no reason to discuss it further...
    Серёжа, Sergey

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,424

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    ricin is new (relatively) and do not leave traces ..
    Ricin is as old as the castor oil plant.

    However the OP was talking about neonicitiniods, plus brought up DDT. My question to him was which does he think is worst.

    There is a purpose to this question, but I suspect Borderbeeman knows what it is, so will not answer. An old technique used by these people on chat sites to derail sensible discussion when they think they are wrong, will lose. Make statements, if people do not swallow it hook line & sinker but instead ask questions, never answer them, and hope the issue gets buried. Of course if the person was correct in his statements, he would not be afraid to answer questions. Not wanting further discussion gives away the presence of flawed arguments.

    But I'm hoping you will answer & prove me wrong Borderbeeman.

    Also. the invite to visit me next time you are in my country is totally genuine. You could spend a day working bees with me in what you believe is my toxic little country, I'm really a nice guy, you will enjoy, be well fed and cared for, and my experiment will be to see if some real bees in neonicitinoid country can change some of your beliefs.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Crystal Water, Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    888

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    My reference here says that the Tea Tree is- Coast Tea-Tree (Leptospermum laevigatum) so it appears to be similar but not the same. It grows here in coastal and wet areas.
    The Manuka honey I have seen sold here is from NZ. But I will keep an eye open for any local stuff.
    About Australians speaking Maori. Since around 1974 about 650 000 New Zealander's have arrived on our shores and Maori is of course the lingo of preference in some suburbs!

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,424

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Won't answer that LOL
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Edinburgh, UK
    Posts
    223

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    So now I've fully apologised Borderbeeman, it is only right you respond in the same spirit by answering a few of my questions. Let's have a conversation!
    Hey Oldtimer, there is no need for any 'apologies' - you haven't done anything 'wrong' in my eyes. I know zip about Manuka honey - I was as surprised as you that it is being sold in both countries. Good luck to every beek who can make a living from it.

    I wouild love to respond to your questions but the Moderator is not allowing me to post in real time or in real locations.
    I assume this is to destroy any proper conversation. He no longer allows me to start topics and I cannot respond to questions directly.
    Sorry - but that is 'the rules' apparently/.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,449

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Ricin is as old as the castor oil plant....
    If I remember properly, ricin as a poison was "invented" by KGB, thus, it is relatively new in my time scale. The KCN (added to the icing in the cookies) was used to kill Russian Royal's family favorite Raspytin 20-30 years earlier - it did not work well. Soviet Union is new to me, "Royal" Russia is in the very past
    You could not be poisoned by castor plant or its seeds, ricin needs to be isolated from the seeds by quite sophisticated biochemical process, which was mastered to the degree that now ordinary terrorist could made it.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Crystal Water, Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    888

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    If I remember properly, ricin as a poison was "invented" by KGB, thus, it is relatively new in my time scale. The KCN (added to the icing in the cookies) was used to kill Russian Royal's family favorite Raspytin 20-30 years earlier - it did not work well. Soviet Union is new to me, "Royal" Russia is in the very past
    You could not be poisoned by castor plant or its seeds, ricin needs to be isolated from the seeds by quite sophisticated biochemical process, which was mastered to the degree that now ordinary terrorist could made it.
    I had a student who swallowed a seed from the Castor Oil Plan ( I guess for fun!) and he told me that he was violently sick ( " no need to pump out the stomach" he told me) that he had to be hospitalised. Here is an interesting paper on the issue: http://www.phsource.us/PH/CBRNE/MABC...e.pdf#page=621

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
    Posts
    641

    Default Re: The austrlian distraction

    "I wouild love to respond to your questions but the Moderator is not allowing me to post in real time or in real locations.
    I assume this is to destroy any proper conversation.
    "

    No BBM, this is because you have a long history of polluting this forum with your intentionally misleading diatribes that are void of supporting facts.

    Further, you do not engage in any type of conversation. You simply post your very political statements and then ignore any points others post which contradicted your religion.

    Mr Palmer asked :" I keep more than 1000 colonies including wintered nucleus colonies and production colonies. I made 100+ lbs/colony from the honey producers. My bees are surrounded by corn treated with clothianidin. My winter losses are between 10% and 15%...same as always since varroa arrived. Diagnosing the losses, it becomes obvious the most of the losses were from varroa.

    So, tell me why my bees aren't aren't sick from neonics.


    BBM, please explain how Mr. Palmer can have such good success when, according to you, his bees feed on such poisonous chemicals? That you won't answer this question confirms that you have no intention in engaging in a conversation and are only interested in using this forum as your political soapbox.
    --shinbone
    (3rd year, 9 hives, Zone 5b, 5400 ft, 15.8" annual rainfall)

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,449

    Default Re: The Australian Distraction Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by max2 View Post
    .. swallowed a seed from the Castor Oil Plan ( I guess for fun!) and he told me that he was violently sick ( " no need to pump out the stomach" he told me) that he had to be hospitalised. ...
    Castor oil is a stimulant laxative. I guess this is what your student experienced. Probably some extra sensitivity to irritation provided by oil. If it would be ricin - there is no antidote Also - no symptoms
    I have to admit - personally I never consume castor beans, so I do not know what expect.
    Серёжа, Sergey

Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads