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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    The bees in the rural area are in trouble and the only difference that I come up with are the fields of corn and soybeans. Farmers have to eat too and they plant what makes them the most monies. If I were in their shoes, I probably would do the same.

    I find puzzling is gmcharlie's response is that he takes all the honey and still they came thru in 2011 where he/she suffered 1% loss that grew to 30% in 2012 and his reasoning is that he is a bad beek. He/she didn't explain why he was a bad beek. I would believe that he needed to supplement the honey with some sort of sugar to keep the cluster alive. Perhaps the cluster of bees was too small going into the 2012/2013 winter was too small and it is not beyond me to think of the possibility of a link of cluster size and neonics.

    I know that I have had private conversations with multiple individuals who have had 50+ colonies and they have had major losses with their bees next to the cornfields as well. I suspect that some of them don't want to tell their future customers of these failures as it could hurt their sales, so they stay mum about it.

    I also don't believe that the moderator of this forum is in the back pocket of the neonics. If so, I can't imagine that neonic postings would remain where they can be searched thru google and other search engines.

    BlueDiamond is reporting that 80% of the Indiana hives for this one organization survived a mild winter, which means that 20% perished during this mild winter of 2011/2012. I can't imagine that being positive press. It should have been much lower.

    Most beeks are really scared for their bees and the smoking gun seems to be neonics.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    The French honey production fell by almost 50% after they lost a million hives when neonics were introduced in the mid 1990s. They banned the neonics in 2000 and the honey harvest rebounded - as did the bees.

    you can read all about it in this report here:

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7FC...it?usp=sharing


    YEAR WEIGHT of FRENCH HONEY CROP (kg.)
    1995 1,000,893 kg
    1996 1,109,950
    1997 638,727
    1998 637,446
    1999 500,000

    The detailed figures and graphs are contained in the above paper.
    Since neonics were banned in 2000AD, the harvest has recovered to its previous level although neonics are still widely used in France on 'non-bee-attractive-crops' (cereals, vegetables etc.)

    The French are not stupid. they have never rescinded the ban on neonics despite Bayer and Syngenta fighting them in the courts year, after year, after year after year.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    Just ask me!... Be glad to tell you!..... I switched to trying to winter in Nucs, and I missed a severe Mite problem going into late fall. That coupled with a fairly deep long winter left my losses higher than I had hoped, but still acceptable to me. The year before I did everything perfect. and we had a really mild short winter.

    Your comment about them keeping Mum to not hurt sales baffles me. a guy with 50 hives is not makeing a living selling bees. so he has no reason to hide anything?

    WHen the nation wide losess are in the 30% range No matter if your in Neonics or not, why do you think BlueDiamond would be ashamed of that?

    AS beeks most of us are lazy. very few stack there hives for wintering. Almost none this far south (IL and IN) wrap and protect and make sure they are dry. I promise Blue Diamond is doing a blanket mite control, and not checking each hive individualy for mites. so why do you want to blame Neonics??
    I would wager the amount of neonics in a hive is TINY. by fall all the pollen from the crops is used up, and they are on weeds, Golden rod is huge here, All the summer foragers are long gone, so in theory the one at risk would be the queens... shes been feed this stuff her entire life and its all stored up in her...... and yet she lives.....

    Most new inexperinced beeks are looking for someone to blame..... I dare say IMO most knowledgable beeks look in the mirror.... there is much more I don't know than what I do.

    I do know that Neonics are helping farmers, on a scale you cannot concieve. and that to stop that for the sake of some honey and peace of mind of a bunch of people who squawk a lot , with no real data is foolish....

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    gmcharlie, you kind of hit on what I've been pondering. A lot of people pointing the finger at neonics, and I'm trying to figure out why it crashes them in the fall/winter. People claim it causes them to lose their way and can't find their way back and I'm trying to figure out where they're going in winter. Also, just as you say, exposure should drop off after summer during winter build up so where are all the neonics coming into the hive then.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by CentralPAguy View Post

    I find puzzling is gmcharlie's response is that he takes all the honey and still they came thru in 2011 where he/she suffered 1% loss that grew to 30% in 2012 and his reasoning is that he is a bad beek. He/she didn't explain why he was a bad beek. I would believe that he needed to supplement the honey with some sort of sugar to keep the cluster alive. Perhaps the cluster of bees was too small going into the 2012/2013 winter was too small and it is not beyond me to think of the possibility of a link of cluster size and neonics..
    Could be lack of forage, do to the worst drought in 50 years. I lost 25% of my hives, my fault they ran out of store. They were all flying in March, so they almost made it till spring.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    When does an inexperienced beek become an experienced beek. I have had bees for more than 5 years and I read up as much as I can. Maybe I am just a bad beekeeper with my bees in the countryside but am a fabulous beek in my town yards. I really do try to examine what is killing my bees and I take notes and I just wonder what is the difference for the survival rate of my town bees versus my country bees. If all things being equal, I provide the same of care or neglect to both groups of hives. So why the difference.

    Please note that I am not a backyard hobbyist, as I have been to 120+ hives and spend thousands of dollars acquiring bees with the hope that next year will be better than the past. This is foolish if my bees keep dying.

    Gmcharlie, thanks -- I do listen to other beeks and appreciate your sharing. I do understand that mites can knock you down and that they need to be controlled. I think you are fortunate to have fields of goldenrod around you and maybe that is some of the reason for success. Goldenrod grows on fields that have not been plowed as it takes all summer to grow. Where I am at, there is goldenrod but not so much-- it is rare to find a field of of any measurable goldenrod in my area as the farmers are taking all possible acreage to grow corn/soybeans. Sometimes, I have seen them doubleplant crops.

    I also think that the spring buildup is occurring, they are eating the food stores that they have made and if neonics are in them, then this is what they are eating. Maybe it helps to explain the huge losses that the big operators are seeing. They are in the business to make money and they need to make as much money as they can. So, it doesn't hold water when individuals diagnose them as bad beeks as they lose their money making opportunities for every hive that dies or is not at the required strengths to do effective pollination.

    I really do want farmers to prosper, but if neonics is anything like DDT, well then we need to ban them for our safety and our children's safety. If banning neonics affects the farmer's profits, then let's develop alternatives that don't harm us in the process. We need both the food and the bees.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    I think although its interesting to discuss commercial farming and commercial beekeeping both are doomed and will fall victim to their own management. Any industry that relies on unsustainable resources will ultimately fail, some sooner than others.

    Here we are try to tell farmers to stop using pesticides when most beekeepers use pesticides in their own hives? Does this strike anyone else as crazy?

    Does anyone really think that maintaing vast monocultures that can exist only by shipping in thousands of hives from around the country every year is a good way to farm? Does anyone think either the farmers or the bee keepers can keep this up forever?

    The great thing about this problem is that it will self resolve. Once most of the bees die most of the agriculture that depends on them will also fail. Instead of CCD they will be talking about agricultural collapse disorder.

    Its going to be messy and a lot of people are going to die but I see no way to avoid it. Their is too much money involved for either side to change their practices. Both industries must physically be destroyed and rebuilt. All anyone can do is run for the hills with a few hives and bags of seed and try and wait it out so there will be someone to recolonize the empty farms once it all falls apart.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
    Its going to be messy and a lot of people are going to die but I see no way to avoid it. Their is too much money involved for either side to change their practices. Both industries must physically be destroyed and rebuilt. All anyone can do is run for the hills with a few hives and bags of seed and try and wait it out so there will be someone to recolonize the empty farms once it all falls apart.
    Is that why you live in Montana? Lot of people who think like you are up there... right?
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by CentralPAguy View Post
    ps.

    I also think that the spring buildup is occurring, they are eating the food stores that they have made and if neonics are in them, then this is what they are eating. Maybe it helps to explain the huge losses that the big operators are seeing. They are in the business to make money and they need to make as much money as they can. So, it doesn't hold water when individuals diagnose them as bad beeks as they lose their money making opportunities for every hive that dies or is not at the required strengths to do effective pollination.

    I really do want farmers to prosper, but if neonics is anything like DDT, well then we need to ban them for our safety and our children's safety. If banning neonics affects the farmer's profits, then let's develop alternatives that don't harm us in the process. We need both the food and the bees.
    That is a possibility, and a reasonable discussion. Around here the tine amount of corn pollen and been pollen (both only avalible for a cpl weeks and neither is used heavily) My assumption is that most of this would be used up shortly, and very little would remain percentage wise. Most pollen stores around here come from other plants.
    Goldenrod grows in the margins, ditches and such, and is our main fall flow. also a lot of CRP ground. so if the thoery were right in July when corn tassles I should see a lot of dead brood, not happening.......and yes I have winter losses. but I promise you of the roughly 30% I average. 90% of that is starvation. bees can't get to food stores.
    It makes no sense that a huge booming queen hives in which I leave all stores on has no problems (never lost a queen breeder hive) and the others do... they are right next to each other, same food sources.

    I am not going to say that a complete collapse of some yards isn't related to any of these Chems, what I am saying is that those of us with HUGE amounts of them all around us are not loosing any more hives than those guys who don't see them at all..... that right there should be enough to shut up people who don't live here...... I am not going to preach to everyone about there backyards, I just want to tell you whats in mine...
    Borderbeeman wants to rule the world. I think his real problem is he doesn't like big companies.....or listening to people who really do have a stake in it. I am switching to making a living on bees... in the middle of the most heavy usage of ag chems in the world.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    Is that why you live in Montana? Lot of people who think like you are up there... right?
    hpm have you lived in Montana to make the argument? I can see the point of his assertion that monoculture farming and the heavy reliance on pesticides/herbicides could be an end fail .. and then again without certain controls maybe bees can't make it ... Aerindel has good points do you?
    Think about it....Buy American

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    hpm have you lived in Montana to make the argument? I can see the point of his assertion that monoculture farming and the heavy reliance on pesticides/herbicides could be an end fail .. and then again without certain controls maybe bees can't make it ... Aerindel has good points do you?
    No, I was just wondering what we do when stop monoculture farming, using pesticides and herbicides. Head for the hills with a bag of seed?
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    gmcharlie,

    you got me thinking that location very might well be the difference between why some beeks like myself are having trouble with the bee losses, while you yourself are not seeing them.

    Where I am, I have very little fall flow - I have to make my honey in the spring as there is nothing in the fall. I only worry about swarming in the spring time. However if your main flow is in the fall and it is on Goldenrod, I am thinking that your hives dramatically increase their strengths in the fall, where you have to concern yourself about swarming. It likely means that your bees are working the fall flowers and are collecting the pollen and nectar from them. and your queens are in a laying frenzy, while mine are shutting down, which may mean larger clusters in your hives going into winter than mine. I am thinking that perhaps my winters might be milder.

    It would be fascinating for someone to measure the percentage of types of pollen that are on your frames versus the percentages of types of pollens that are on my frames. Your pollen just might be healthy, while if my suspicions are true that my pollen contains neonics. I have friends in Western PA who have a fall flow and I need to ask them how their bees are doing.

    I wonder if any beeks or scientists have looked into hives that have a strong fall flow versus hives that only have a strong spring flow. Does anyone know of any independent labs where one could have pollen tested for both 1) types of pollen in percentages and for 2) neonics and if so, what percentage?

    I actually like Borderbeeman's postings. If you are going to make a living off of bees, then you need to be a large operator. Yes? For me, I had dreams on expanding to follow in your shoes, but with my losses, I have had to rethink that dream.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    gmcharlie, you kind of hit on what I've been pondering. A lot of people pointing the finger at neonics, and I'm trying to figure out why it crashes them in the fall/winter. People claim it causes them to lose their way and can't find their way back and I'm trying to figure out where they're going in winter. Also, just as you say, exposure should drop off after summer during winter build up so where are all the neonics coming into the hive then.
    As I said, this is not my theory - it is that of this large scale bee farmer. You can download and read his article here:

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7FC...it?usp=sharing

    One large scale bee farmer (who lost 2,000 out of 3,000 colonies in California this Spring) has written about this. His observation is that the neonics affect foragers in the field - possibly over a period of a week or more, but eventually their nervous system is wrecked and they cannot find their way home, or possibnly not even fly. They just sit on a plant trembling and shaking until they die.

    So the hive suffers a growing loss of forager bees - population drops.
    The colony senses that less food is coming in, so in 'emergency mode' younger nurse bees are pushed out into the field as foragers to try and maintain the level of incoming nectar and pollen, which of course is contaminated with neonics. But these nurse bees are still too young to be effective foragers, their lifespan is shortened and they die early; they are also being taken away from their real job - raising larvae.

    At the same time, lab studies have shown that neonics cause the hypopharyngeal gland in bees to shrink - so this presumably means they produce less brood-food.

    The end result is that the population gradually falls and the colony is robbed of young bees. The result is that it goes into the winter with too many old bees and too few 'winter bees'. then as the old bees die-off naturally in the winter - the colony is too small to maintain thermal regulation and just dies. The beekeeper finds the queen with a handful of dead bees in the Spring.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    Borderbee, I had an intersting conversation yesterday about the large scale guy I think your refering to... It was with a bee inspector for the state... He said and I quote " that idiot had AFB in every hive we tested"....... May not be the same guy as you won't name yours...... But the Jist is correct for most of the people squawking its PPB killing the hives.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by CentralPAguy View Post
    gmcharlie,

    you got me thinking that location very might well be the difference between why some beeks like myself are having trouble with the bee losses, while you yourself are not seeing them.

    Where I am, I have very little fall flow - I have to make my honey in the spring as there is nothing in the fall. I only worry about swarming in the spring time. However if your main flow is in the fall and it is on Goldenrod, I am thinking that your hives dramatically increase their strengths in the fall, where you have to concern yourself about swarming. It likely means that your bees are working the fall flowers and are collecting the pollen and nectar from them. and your queens are in a laying frenzy, while mine are shutting down, which may mean larger clusters in your hives going into winter than mine. I am thinking that perhaps my winters might be milder.

    It would be fascinating for someone to measure the percentage of types of pollen that are on your frames versus the percentages of types of pollens that are on my frames. Your pollen just might be healthy, while if my suspicions are true that my pollen contains neonics. I have friends in Western PA who have a fall flow and I need to ask them how their bees are doing.

    I wonder if any beeks or scientists have looked into hives that have a strong fall flow versus hives that only have a strong spring flow. Does anyone know of any independent labs where one could have pollen tested for both 1) types of pollen in percentages and for 2) neonics and if so, what percentage?

    I actually like Borderbeeman's postings. If you are going to make a living off of bees, then you need to be a large operator. Yes? For me, I had dreams on expanding to follow in your shoes, but with my losses, I have had to rethink that dream.
    Central, your reading into the post, its not a strong fall flow, its the only flow in the fall. Our flows are almost identical in patterns. Our hives do not build up strong on goldenrod, my point is the window for neonics pollen is around 2 weeks out of a 26 week period, and that pollen is used up.
    Your theory on testing, is and has been done several times. and it has always shown no issues. thats why borderbee won't mention it. I have a post here with a link to Randy Olivers site. if your really interested in good writeing and facts, read it...... it will take an hour ...... so its not a 30 second blog... but if your serious its the way to go..

    As for going pro... don't make excuses... there are people makeing a living on bees all around this country including PA..... you may not be there yet, but there around and doing fine... find them and learn what they know. I am absolutly no expert. but I know many who are and I bug the heck out of them!

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Borderbee, I had an intersting conversation yesterday about the large scale guy I think your refering to... It was with a bee inspector for the state... He said and I quote " that idiot had AFB in every hive we tested"....... May not be the same guy as you won't name yours...... But the Jist is correct for most of the people squawking its PPB killing the hives.
    I am not at liberty to name my source; he has his own reasons for reserving his privacy within the migratory bee industry. My source is a third generation migratory beekeeper; his family have been bee experts for 60 years.
    His bees were INSPECTED by the almond growers when they arrived in California and passed 'fit for pollination'. There was no AFB. They collapsed and died within a month while waiting to go into the almond groves.

    Must be some other idiot [he was] talking about.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    Must be some other idiot [he was] talking about.
    So the guy lost 2000 out of 3000 hives in one month out in the Almonds..... hmm.... and he is anonymous. Seems like there would be a lot of people here who would know of him....
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    Borderbeeman
    Being a large scale, third gereration beeman does not remove the potential for a poor decision. Cost benefits ratios are made all the time in agriculture. I have been an observer in the demise of several big multigenerational farms that went down the tube because of a poor decision to treat or not treat, or the next generation takes the reins and drives the buggy in the ditch. There are just too many examples of poor decisions sinking the ship, and "supprisingly" I have never heard a one of these guys admit they screwed up. They blame it on everybody but themselves. Another thing that happens is they run to the media for sympathy. So I guess what I am getting to is your mention of long time beekeepers as examples of sound judgement just does not gain any ground.
    Dave

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    No, I was just wondering what we do when stop monoculture farming, using pesticides and herbicides. Head for the hills with a bag of seed?
    I would think inter-planting of crops and crop rotation would be the wise choice but then there are always those who throw in the towel when the job gets too tough. Hey-Ho.
    Think about it....Buy American

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    I would think inter-planting of crops
    Gardening?

    and crop rotation
    Been doing that since the Dust Bowl days....
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

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