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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,076

    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    Jonathan, you are not paying attention.
    The four Dog Defense is now The Five Dog Defense.
    It was decided that a FIFTH strategy of the poison manufacturers and industry trolls was:

    SUPPRESSION OF DISSENT
    Hmmm, "suppression of dissent", sounds evil. I posted a very civilized comment/question at Borderbeeman's blog, here:

    http://friendsofthebees.wordpress.com/

    My comment is "Awaiting Moderation". Would anyone care to guess how long it might be before my comment actually get published?

    I invite others to visit the link above.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  2. #62
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    Jan 2006
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    Lee\'s Summit, MO
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    1,300

    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    From 6:59 to 7:30 Borderbeeman apparently had too much coffee and free time. It ended with "European Science just crushed your gonads in a vice." Does that honestly pass for civil? Not sure what it takes to get banned or at least flagged on this site any more.

    This is the same style study supported "science" that was used to justify all types of European governmental actions in the 30's and early 40's. Notice how Borderbeeman is already creating an out for not finding the results they need to justify banning "Big Ag" pesticides in the 2 years they've got? They need more time... more time... more time. In fact all they want to do is destroy some large argicultural suppliers, by any means neccesary. At this time it's with inuendos and public opinion, not repeatable scientifically accepted result based studies. They don't care, the end justify the means.
    Ninja, is not in the dictionary. Well played Ninja's, well played...

  3. #63
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    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by D Coates View Post
    [he] apparently had too much coffee and free time. It ended with "European Science just crushed your gonads in a vice." Does that honestly pass for civil? Not sure what it takes to get banned or at least flagged on this site any more.
    The solution to that issue is to laugh as you would at a court jester!



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester

    Aside from being amusing, it will also get you branded as a "lead attack dog" and make you eligible for a bribe/payoff check from the industry. What's not to like? Free money! Note that Barry has already cashed in and got his big buyout!

    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Belfast, Ireland
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    396

    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense


  5. #65
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    Reno, NV
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    2,955

    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    jonathan:

    I recently attended an online conference where representatives from the companies producing neonic coated seeds acknowledged that they are working on new formulations to fix the seed coat abrasion problem.

    So, there's no denial by anyone of the contaminated talc problem.

    There's no need for 4 or even five dogs here.

    The translocation experimental design is the only dog needed, and it hunts!

    Here's where it al started:

    GREATTI M., SABATINI A. G., BARBATTINI R., ROSSI S., STRAVISI
    A., 2003.- Risk of environmental contamination by the
    active ingredient imidacloprid used for corn seed dressing.
    Preliminary results.- Bulletin of Insectology, 56: 69-72.
    I did not see where anyone is saying there "Is" denial. I did see where it was claim there "Was" denial. It was also followed up with ow they then changed their toon to admitting their is a problem, that bees are exposed etc.

    So is that outright blatant lying? I think so given who it is coming from. What the denial had originally been and what the past has revealed to us about contamination of the environment. I simply cannot believe that anyone can really think they will not contaminate the environment with a product that is coating seed. What I do find surprising is that there are still so many that will believe it. They knew without a doubt that anything and everything would end up exposed to this stuff and they don't care.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  6. #66
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Daniel, your in an area that has no crops how are your winter losses?? should be nirvana out there.......

    No one has ever claimed they do not invade the enviorment, anymore than our breathing invades the environment. but as pointed out in many real studies, these are the better of the problems. seed coatings to stop cutworms and their friends, are much better for our world and the bees than the other Chemecials used. I realize your not in farming ground, but without these treatments our yields would be imediatly cut by 25% just by cutworms alone....... Cutting the worlds food by 25% is not realistic to most people ( I realize a few nutjobs are all for it) and in this case those seed coatings are the best way known right now to accomplish it. I posted a link to a very good article by Randy Oliver. I hope you read it... I know borderbee won't because it does not agree with his thoughts...

    As Mark Twain said "its easier to fool the people, than convince them they have been fooled"

  7. #67
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    We should keep in mind that they have a ban on neonics in the EU starting at the end of December AND they won't grant any new GMO product approvals till 2014!

    I can't imagine what the EU farmers are going to do to recover their margins.

    I think that the reality of that is going shake them back out of any delusions they may have about how beneficial the decision to ban is, and the chain of repercussions it can have.

    If you can't pay back your debts, you go broke. And, this is on top of a bad economy.

    I think the commission may have some dogs of its own.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    Gaithersburg, MD
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    363

    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post

    I can't imagine what the EU farmers are going to do to recover their margins.

    If you can't pay back your debts, you go broke. And, this is on top of a bad economy.

    I think the commission may have some dogs of its own.
    Sure. Government will pay for it. It's not like they already have some huge spending problems or something.

    There is a reason we split from Europe a few hundred years ago. Let's hope were smart enough to not go down that road--but I'm building my farm just in case and have means to defend it.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    New Cumberland, PA
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    I found the articles/linksthat BorderBeeman provided to be insightful. Some of the comments that were placed on this thread and other threads that he/she created were useless to the discussion as it seemed that they really were bullying and ridicule. And I have a personal distaste when I see it.

    Having said that, I suffered large percentage of losses on my country beeyards but didn't suffer so much with my town beeyards and I really want to know what caused the differences.

  10. #70
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    Sep 2011
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    Reno, NV
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Charlie, I am sure you believe what it is you say you believe. But in regard to our missing agriculture. I know for a fact how wrong you are. I happen to come from Kansas where I grew up on a farm. With what I learned there I now grow Tobacco in Nevada where we don't grow anything. Just a few years ago it Was Nevada Hay that we do not grow that was saving Texas cattle. And we did it with less rainfall than they got. I wonder why they where not able to grow their own. I do not for one second think that mature suddenly went haywire. I think it is lazy dependent methods.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Edinburgh, UK
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    223

    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    We should keep in mind that they have a ban on neonics in the EU starting at the end of December AND they won't grant any new GMO product approvals till 2014!

    I can't imagine what the EU farmers are going to do to recover their margins.

    I think that the reality of that is going shake them back out of any delusions they may have about how beneficial the decision to ban is, and the chain of repercussions it can have.

    If you can't pay back your debts, you go broke. And, this is on top of a bad economy.
    .
    France banned neonics 13 years ago - farmers moved to Integrated Pest Management (IPM) - they also re-discovered that the pesticide companies had been telling lies; they DIDNT have to treat every single seed they planted with deadly nerve-poisons in order to raise good crops. One official report quoted to me recently (I will try to get a reference) was that when they stopped treating corn with neonics - the decline in production was less than 1%. The cost of pesticides was about 5% - so the farmers made more money.

    France is doing just fine. Even though the neonics were banned 13 years ago, I could not find a single reference to the French Farmers Union petitioning to have neonics brought back. And since the farmers wre the ones who were most likely to 'suffer' as a result of the neonics ban - this should tell you something.
    You should treat yourself, go for a visit. France is the most beautiful farming country in Europe, wildflowers are chest high along every rural road, wildlife is everywhere and the wine, bread, cheese and beef are the best in the world.

    Wikipedia - French Agriculture

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy...ce#Agriculture
    Agriculture

    France is the world's second largest agricultural exporter, world's sixth-largest agricultural producer and European Union's leading agricultural power, accounting for about one-third of all agricultural land within the EU.

    Northern France is characterized by large wheat farms. Dairy products, pork, poultry, and apple production are concentrated in the western region. Beef production is located in central France, while the production of fruits, vegetables, and wine ranges from central to southern France. France is a large producer of many agricultural products and is currently expanding its forestry and fishery industries.

    As the world's second-largest agricultural exporter, France ranks just after the United States.[21]
    The destination of 70% of its exports are other EU members states. France also provide agricultural exports to many poor African countries (including its former colonies) which face serious food shortage. Wheat, beef, pork, poultry, and dairy products are the principal exports.

    Exports from the United States face stiff competition from domestic production, other EU member states, and third world countries in France. U.S. agricultural exports to France, totaling some $600 million annually, consist primarily of soybeans and soybean products, feeds and fodders, seafood, and consumer products, especially snack foods and nuts. French exports to the United States are much more high value products such as cheese, processed products and wine.

  12. #72
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    I am betting that means you didn't/wont read the article........ learned to grow tobacco in Nevada??? Hmmm which hand would that be in? I am betting its left handed!(just kidding) Nevade doesn't even begin to show up on the neonic maps....... We both know that, and yet are your loses better than ours out here? you should be in Nirvana... all that virgin ag....

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Belfast, Ireland
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    396

    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    France banned neonics 13 years ago - farmers moved to Integrated Pest Management (IPM) - they also re-discovered that the pesticide companies had been telling lies; they DIDNT have to treat every single seed they planted with deadly nerve-poisons in order to raise good crops.
    France
    One of the most extensive monitoring approaches is
    being conducted in France to survey the bee safety of the
    thiamethoxam seed treatment in maize. The implemented
    survey is aimed at evaluating the potential side-effects of the
    use of coated seeds on pollinating insects, and more particularly
    on the honey bee.
    This survey was implemented over 3 years, covered 3 to 6 regions and involved several monitoring sites
    for each region. Sites had intensive maize cultivation grown from either treated or non-treated maize
    seeds. Apiaries were settled before sowing and remained until overwintering. Final data indicated a very
    low exposure of bees to residues of thiamethoxam over the entire growth period, and highlighted no
    product-related effect on colonies, even after several years of cohabitation.
    A very extensive national long-term bee health monitoring project, the “Deutsche Bienenmonitoring”
    (German Bee Monitoring), is currently ongoing in Germany. In terms of the monitoring, more than
    1,200 bee colonies from about 120 apiaries all over Germany are surveyed for their health and survival
    in connection with all environmental factors that may potentially affect bee health. Concurrently, the
    monitored hives were surveyed for pesticide residues.
    The project was started in 2003, results of the first years were published by Genersch et al. (2010).
    Factors that were found to be correlated with colony losses include
    V. destructo
    r infestation, certain
    virus diseases, age of the queen and weakness of the colony; no correlations were found with
    Nosema
    infestation and the exposure to pesticides.
    A similar study was conducted in the years 2002-2005 in France. In total 125 hives from 25 apiaries
    distributed over the country were surveyed over the study period regarding their health and their survival,
    and pesticide residues were measured in several relevant hive matrices like pollen, beeswax and honey.
    The results were published by Chauzat et al. (2006; 2009; 2011) and Chauzat and Faucon (2007). Although
    a relatively high number of pesticide residues were detected from a rather broad range of compounds,
    there was no correlation between pesticide residues in bee hives and colony mortality.
    Pollinator.org P32, P35

  14. #74
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    Apr 2012
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    Gaithersburg, MD
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    363

    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by CentralPAguy View Post
    I found the articles/linksthat BorderBeeman provided to be insightful. Some of the comments that were placed on this thread and other threads that he/she created were useless to the discussion as it seemed that they really were bullying and ridicule.
    Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by CentralPAguy View Post
    said that, I suffered large percentage of losses on my country beeyards but didn't suffer so much with my town beeyards and I really want to know what caused the differences.
    My first guess would be the more abundant nectar flow in towns due to landscaping and the artificial warming of towns due to retained solar radiation in paved surfaces--not neonics. The flow here in suburbialand is amazing and I'm curious how this will compare with my hives when I finally put a few on my property.

    You should start taking detailed notes on honey stores, rates and timing of build up, and temps at the hive locations to see how different they are. Make notes of the landscaping in the town and talk to your neighboring farmers to see what they actually grow and how they grow it. Is it hayfield and dairy operations, no-till commodities w/ GMO products, organic market gardens (think there are a few in your area) etc. From there you could begin to probe reasons for the differences. Neonic use may be negligible in the area. Would take several years and then your data are still conjecture but at least you could form a semi-informed opinion on your particular situation.

    This is what I'd do since it seems you may really be curious as to the cause and not just anti-neonic for the simple reason that it is a chemical made by a corporation. Much harder than fingering a villain for sure. I, personally, grow all my own veggies in a suburban lot and would not use neonics in my production unless it was to combat something VERY severe where the benefits drastically outweighed the risks. Much easier to do when I don't rely on it as a matter of survival though. Can't sit here in my comfortable home and full belly and condemn those that rely on products to better their situation (whether it ultimately betters their situation for real is a whole other debate).

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