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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by buckbee View Post
    Well gee, I am a beekeeper and I understand that perfectly - but his location has NOTHING to do with the post at the top of this thread, which NOBODY has come close to engaging with.
    The thread title is "Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense" and the original post is liberally illustrated with dogs! What do dogs have to do with neonicotinoids, bees, or beekeeping?


    Perhaps you would be happier if I posted a photo of a rabid dog? Do you really think dogs are more relevant to beekeeping than LOCATION? Or is it that this thread is not really about beekeeping in the first place?

    Graham
    --- Victor Hugo - "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.”

  2. #22
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    Halifax,NOva Scotia,Canada
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    I started to read this post cause I am interested in "Neonicotinoids". So why is everyone talking about forum rules, personal details, lobbyist? Can we get back to the topic at hand?

  3. #23
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    Libertytown, MD, USA
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Regarding DDT:
    http://www.wnd.com/2005/06/31095/

    And, on another note, when you come here and slander a whole group of people (those who develop neo-nics) by accusing them of lying etc., you shouldn't expect to be taken seriously when you complain about the moderation of the forum. I'm all for people being held accountable, and I still have an open mind in regard to the safety of neo-nics, but I'm certainly no fan of reactionary, crusading sensationalizing.

  4. #24
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Those of you interested in the writings of a beekeeper located in Coldstream, Scotland regarding neonicotinoids may like to review this link:
    http://pierreterre.com/blog/very-goo...e-graham-white

    I am not endorsing the views presented above, merely providing a link for those who may be interested.

    Toodle pip
    Graham
    --- Victor Hugo - "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.”

  5. #25
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by buckbee View Post
    This from someone who signs themselves hpm08161947....
    Regular readers will know my name.... Herb McIntyre, Garland, NC. It has been on many posts.... used to be my signature. You may also check my Profile.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  6. #26
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    Jun 2010
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    Stillwell, KS
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    629

    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    More boring drivel. Wish I had the 10 minutes back I spent on this thread.


    Don

  7. #27
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    Reno, NV
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    The 4 dog defense claim does not hold water for me. it is defense. and you could put any response fro,m an innocent person being accused of something within it's framework. IN other words how woudl it look if someone "Defended" from a false accusation.

    Denial- so what is an honest response if you didn't do it?
    Obfuscation- simply out of being offended from being accused.
    Spreading doubt- simply offering other ideas of what might have caused it
    Diversion- same as above just being suspected as a lie for other reasons. You can confuse them or put the blame on others either way suspicion is removed form you. but either would be used as helping investigate the cause by an innocent parson.

    Now the 4 dog defense is specifically intended to look at the responses of a guilty person trying to avoid blame.

    There is much more that is evident beyond their defense in a guilty party. Yes these are methods a person will deny what they are guilty of. but they alone are not evidence of deceit by a far cry.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  8. #28
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    Dec 2010
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    Edinburgh, UK
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    223

    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    The Four Dog Defense is relevant because it is what Big Ag, Big Chem and Big Tobacco have been using since WWII. Bayer and Syngenta may call their trade 'crop protection' but the truth is that they are in the poison business. They design deadly toxins derived from nerve gas and manipulate the regulatory system and tests to get them on the market. They then employ every lie in the Playbook to keep them on the market for 20 years - and then reality catches up and they are banned (DDT, Dieldrin, Aldrin, Organophosphates, Endosulfan ,. . .)

    This is not some academic, teatime debate. This is what these people do:

    Slovenia bans neonicotinoids after massive bee deaths in Pomurje region

    sz5_pomor_cebel2.jpg
    CLICK ON IMAGE TO SEE LARGE SIZE

    Slovenian beehives in Pomurje after exposure to the neonicotinoid clothianidin applied as seed coating in corn, April 2011. The new EU prescription to put deflectors on pneumatic sowing machines to avoid dust drift of the poison did not protect these bees. The use of clothianidin is also allowed in the Netherlands under the names Poncho Rood for corn and Poncho Beta for sugar beet.

    Treated Corn Seed and Pesticide Banned as Bee Deaths Continue
    Ljubljana, 28 April 2011 (STA) - The government of Slovenia issued a temporary ban Thursday on seeds treated with neonicotinoid pesticides which have caused massive bee deaths in the north-eastern Pomurje region in the recent weeks. The use of Biscay, a pesticide, will also be limited.

    The decision comes after beekeepers in the heavily agricultural region Pomurje reported massive bee deaths. About 2,500 beehives kept by 45 beekeepers in Pomurje have been affected, Agriculture Minister Gregor Zidan told the press after the cabinet session.

    Lab analyses showed that in at least seven cases the most likely culprit was clothianidin, an insecticide used to treat corn seed. Samples of the treated corn have been sent to German labs to verify whether the corn had been treated properly.

    Clothianidin had been banned by the previous government in 2008 following a similar outbreak of bee deaths, but the ban was revoked by Zidan's predecessor Milan Pogacnik based on an analysis by the Chemistry Institute.

    Zidan said he would demand explanations on why the ban was revoked and then decide whether to take action against his predecessor.

    There is no data on how much seed corn has been treated with clothianidin. Joze Ilersic, the head of the Phytosanitary Administration, said than in 2008 a third of the seed corn had been treated with insecticide.

    Aside from a temporary ban on corn seed treated with neonicotinoids, the government decided to disallow the use of Biscay (based on thiacloprid - another neonicotinoid) for the treatment of canola during blooming due to its possible synergy effects with other pesticides.

    Both clothianidin and thiacloprid are produced by Bayer Cropscience whose best selling product is the neonicotinoid imidacloprid, also linked to honeybee decline.

  9. #29
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    Baker Oregon
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Thank you, I was inspired. I now know how to use my Ignore feature.

    Good Day
    Dan Hayden 4 Years. 9 hives. Tx Free. USDA Zone 5b.

  10. #30
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    Dec 2010
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    Edinburgh, UK
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by RiodeLobo View Post
    Thank you, I was inspired. I now know how to use my Ignore feature.

    Good Day
    Thanks, I guess you have been 'ignoring' things for a long time - for 20 years in fact, in relation to bee deaths and neonics.

  11. #31
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    Aug 2011
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    Marin County, California, USA
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    48

    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Why oh why am I doing this to myself?

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    About 2,500 beehives kept by 45 beekeepers in Pomurje have been affected, Agriculture Minister Gregor Zidan told the press after the cabinet session.

    Lab analyses showed that in at least seven cases the most likely culprit was clothianidin
    So in 0.28% of cases the likely culprit was clothianidin?

    borderbee, have you read Randy Oliver's site at all? http://scientificbeekeeping.com/

    he visited the heart of the U.S. corn and soybean growing area looking for bee kills and health issues from planting dust: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-...the-honey-bee/
    Brian

  12. #32
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    Gaithersburg, MD
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by btmurph View Post
    Why oh why am I doing this to myself?



    So in 0.28% of cases the likely culprit was clothianidin?
    This is why you can't rationally discuss these topics. If you really don't dig into the studies then you can find data to support any point of view. Bees die so it must be the evil corporation's fault. NOTE: I am not suggesting that these chemicals don't have long-term adverse effects, only, that I have not seen any study that conclusively isolated a CCD culprit. Why? Because the cause is an interaction of many things--some of which I'm sure we are not even aware of yet. Obviously, if they come in contact w/ neonics it will cause issues--that's the point of an insecticide. The problem w/ these kinds of things, whether insecticides or new meds, is that long-term effects require long term data in the real world (is that a doggy defense?) which is only achieved by, well, using them.

    I simply replied to this because it seemed the site was being spammed by the neonic stuff recently (usually I only have time to look at the homepage).

    Unfortunately the education system today is more about pushing dogma than teaching critical thinking. One of the dogmatic views pushed: corporations are nothing but evil money grubbing capitalist monsters. And those erudite types love to profess this via their twitter and facebook accounts on their iPhones while they watch the latest blockbuster on their laptop in a Starbucks.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    The Four Dog Defense is relevant because it is what Big Ag, Big Chem and Big Tobacco have been using since WWII. B
    So you say. I say they are defending themselves from your lies and accusations as well as others. so how would their response be any different if I am right?

    I will tell you what I see that tells me they are deceitful. They will not stay on the issue of CCD. they make a great argument for how Nics are not responsible for EFB AFB. SHB or even wax moths. but they will not present one bit of defense that their product does not contribute to CCD. I believe I have even seen statements by Bayer that present a claim that their products are not responsible for freezing and or starvation in bees. yet they will not comment on how their products are not any part of bees vanishing. and that is what I see is blatantly suspicious. I do not consider it suspicions if a person defends themselves from accusations. And I am not impressed with how much you can decorate the name of defense.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  14. #34
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by RiodeLobo View Post
    Thank you, I was inspired. I now know how to use my Ignore feature.

    Good Day
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #35
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    Thanks, I guess you have been 'ignoring' things for a long time -
    What concerns me is how you ignore firsthand experience from others that fly in the face of all your claims. If you want to be taken seriously, then I'd expect a dialog from you that takes into account opposing experience and show an interest in trying to figure out why there isn't a uniform outcome with all bees.
    Regards, Barry

  16. #36
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    Pigeon Falls, WI
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    What concerns me is how you ignore firsthand experience from others that fly in the face of all your claims.
    This statement "rings true" for both sides. When hands on experience reveals to you the same outcome season after season those who never experience it themselves will call you out as a liar. Even when they have no proof you're wrong.....the only proof they have is they haven't had the same experience themselves.
    Leer Family Honey Farm-Shannon Leer

  17. #37
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by JClark View Post
    Are you a paid anti-neonic advocate? Seems to be all you post about.

    Are you familiar at all w/ keeping bees?

    From what I've seen here these four dogs are the conspiracy theories people like to declare when they are caught w/ their pants down. Look up the Stromnessbees character here and the citations he pushes for science.
    There have been several observations that Stromness and borderman are one in the same.... no proof just studies that show....

  18. #38
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    Gaithersburg, MD
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    There have been several observations that Stromness and borderman are one in the same.... no proof just studies that show....
    That was what I was thinking when I wrote the comment. Didn't want to push conspiracy theories though.

  19. #39
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    What concerns me is how you ignore firsthand experience from others that fly in the face of all your claims. If you want to be taken seriously, then I'd expect a dialog from you that takes into account opposing experience and show an interest in trying to figure out why there isn't a uniform outcome with all bees.
    Thanks Barry!

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by JClark View Post
    That was what I was thinking when I wrote the comment. Didn't want to push conspiracy theories though.
    What do yo want to bet he comes back with the 4 dogs defense??
    First he will deny it.....

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