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  1. #1
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    Default Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    The Four Dog Defense

    The Pesticide Lobbyists use a well-recognized series of lies and delaying tactics to dominate the debate in the Press and on Radio and Television. See if you recognise these techniques being used by people on this Forum.

    The classic strategies are: Outright Denial; Smokescreen; Diversions; Sowing Doubt.
    Of these 'sowing doubt' is by far the most common and the most effective. Entire teams of university academics are paid large sums to sow doubt in their 'science' papers, all the time, year after year.

    Public Relations Specialists are also employed to fill the newspapers, TV chat shows and online forums/ Social media with a daily drip feed of Propaganda. Again, mostly sowing doubt although diversion and denial are also used. Online Forums are by far the most cost effective way to do this - you can bet your bottom dollar that there are paid professionals monitoring this Forum right now, ready to heap scorn, sarcasm and ridicule on anyone who dares to oppose the Poison industry.

    Well known public figures are paid or persuaded to make public pronouncements on TV and in the Press, praising the poisoners and condemning objectors as 'hippies', 'conspiracy theorists' and 'back to the Stone Age' green idiots.

    These techniques of Pyschological Warfare were perfected decades ago, when the corporations challenged the Science about the human health hazards of :

    • Lead,
    • Tobacco,
    • DDT
    • Abestos
    • Food additives like Aspartame, MSG, Bovine Growth Hormone etc.
    • PCBs


    This is now a $billion dollar industry in every country; in fact, the food industry, the drug industry and the chemical industry could not function without these propaganda experts.

    These underhand tactics are known as The Four Dog Defense.
    The basic steps of the defence are:

    1. My dog does not bite. OUTRIGHT DENIAL - THE BIG LIE
    Snarling_1681189c.jpg

    At first, the company denies that its product is harmful. This usually includes attempts to discredit scientific studies, or authors of studies, that show harm while the company generate its own fake-studies designed to show no harm.

    NOTE: when Bayer license neonicotinoids in 1992 they stated that it could not possibly harm bees because the neonicotinoids NEVER emerged in pollen and nectar. That was an outright lie - 96% of peer-reviewed Science studies and 10,000,000 dead bee colonies prove the lie.


    2. My dog bites, . . . but it didn't bite you. SMOKESCREEN - OBFUSCATION
    091023-snarling-dog-02-1.jpg

    Pesticide industry concedes that the chemical 'may' be 'potentially' harmful, but insists that bees are not actually exposed to it 'in the real world'.
    This argument works best if only the industry carries out tests or monitors for the chemical (they do).
    It works even better if you use a 1940s testing methodology, which can never reveal chronic, long term effects
    Absence of data is often used to argue that there has been no toxic exposure.

    NOTE: Bayer and Syngenta admit that neonics are hyper-toxic to bees, but claim that ' in the field' bees never receive a fatal dose.

    3. My dog bit you, but it didn't really hurt you. SPREADING DOUBT
    growling-dog1.jpg

    The Pesticide Industry admits that people or wildlife are exposed to the poison, but denies that the exposure caused harm.
    Industry concedes that the chemical is harmful, but only at very high doses.
    It kills bees, or people, but only under unrealistic test conditions, but not at the lower levels or real-world scenarios to which people or wildlife are actually exposed.

    They focus on differences between humans and laboratory animals, alleging that harm such as cancer seen in animal experiments is not relevant to people.


    Bayer, Syngenta, Monsanto have all used this argument.
    In America, the EPA and various high profile beekeepers are the main spreaders of doubt.


    4. My dog bit you, and hurt you, but it wasn't my fault. DIVERSION

    2178427.jpg
    Industry admits the chemical is harming bees, but tries to shift the blame onto other people to avoid regulation and liability.

    Possible culprits are
    • improper use by farmers,
    • out-of-date farming practices, defective planting machines, dry weather
    • blame other toxic chemicals, bee-medications, or poor bee health
    • in the case of bees, the culprits are varroa mites, viruses, poor nutrition, and poor beekeeping.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    On the other end of the spectrum are the dogs that burn brown spots in the neighbors lawn by constantly peeing on them. Just sayin'.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by justusflynns View Post
    On the other end of the spectrum are the dogs that burn brown spots in the neighbors lawn by constantly peeing on them. Just sayin'.
    I'm sure the brown spots are due to neo-nics in the urine.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Border bee man are you anything other than a fear monger?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Burrup View Post
    Border bee man are you anything other than a fear monger?
    Ad hominem attack - shoot the messenger rather than deal with the facts.
    I thought the 'rules' of this forum precluded personal attacks? Is the Moderator going to caution you about this insult?
    Or is it only anyone who raises a genuine issue who gets warned to refrain from personal insults?

    FYI I am a writer, broadcaster, teacher and author of books on conservation and the environment. I spent 20 years as an Environmental Educator (teacher) and Outdoor Education instructor; I have also kept bees as a hobby since 1994.

    I had no problems with my bees from 1994 - 1998, I don't think I lost one hive to winter losses in that period, despite some cold winters; varroa arrived in 1998 and I treated it and controlled it with Bayer's pyrethroid strips. The bees did not die. I continued to get reasonable honey crops, even with varroa, from 1998 until around 2004 when neonics came in around here.
    Since 2004 I began to lose colonies in winter and queens began to be superseded early in their first season, despite the fact that they laid good brood patterns. This reflects what has happened all over the UK in areas dominated by neonic treated canola. My bees are well looked after. They are well insulated in winter and always moved to sheltered, south facing slopes where they are protected from North, West and East winds. They are not genetically isolated and I deliberately move them to new areas where different stocks of drones are flying. I have also bought in queens from the Isle of Islay - 200 miles away in the Scottish Hebrides - an area unaffected by varroa.

    I have never received a penny from any bee-campaign organisation; in fact there is no 'bee campaign organisation' with any paid staff as far as I know, neither in the UK nor in the USA.

    I am old enough to have lived through four phases of the 'Pesticide Cycle' and I resent being lied to by big Chem and big AG.

    They (scientists, universities, regulators, pesticide companies) told us DDT was safe from 1945 to 1989; it wasn't, it killed everything and it caused cancer. They banned it 40 years late.

    In the 60s and 70s the same liars told us organochlorines (dieldrin, aldrin etc) were 'safe''; they lied, the organochlorines killed everything in the landscape; they were highly persistent in soil, water, body fat. They caused cancer. They were banned.

    In the 70s through the 90s the same liars told us Organophosphates were 'safe'. They weren't. Derived from WWII Nerve Gas weapons they killed bees, insects, birds, trout, otters, frogs . . .you name it. The otter almost went extinct in the UK and is only just returning to its old rivers. Tens of thousands of sheep farmers in this country were poisoned by OPs used in sheep-dip; their lives were ruined - many developed Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinsons, early Onset Dementia - all the things which OPs were designed to create - since they were nerve gas weapons. The scientists lied, the pesticide companies lied, the regulators lied; the politicians lied - but vast profits were made. Then the truth came out - they were banned in Europe and the UK.

    In the early 90s the same lying swine who gave us DDT, Organochlorines and Organophosphates - slipped neonics onto the market. They lied about their toxicity to bees - Bayer claimed they were not even toxic to bees because: 'the poison never emerges in the pollen or nectar' - that was a lie. They lied about the persistence in soil and water. they lied about sub-lethal poisoning and chronic, long term effects on colonies. The only field study ever conducted - the Cutler Dupree field study, was dismissed by the EPAs own scientists as 'not valid science'.

    In the period that I have lived through, UK and European wildlife has been almost exterminated from most of our countryside. As a boy I fished for trout, sticklebacks, perch, roach, tench, pike in rivers, canals, ponds etc. All of that is gone. I lived in a big industrial town but even in the town centre we had flocks of sparrows, starlings, blackbirds; on the fringes we had skylarks, yellowhammers, linnets, black-caps - dozens of species of songbirds. Almost all of that is gone.

    The same is true in America; many of you will know the writings of John Muir, Rachel Carson, Aldo Leopold - they describe the same inexorable retreat of Nature under the sustained assault of industrial farming, blanket use of pesticides, prophylactic use of pesticides - the spreading of incredibly dangerous neurotoxic poisons coast to coast, on every crop, all of the time.

    Bees are just the 'canary in the coalmine' - but they happen to be 'my' bees in 'my' coalmine
    I do not want to live in a countryside which is birdless, fishless, bee-less and butterfly-less. I campaign/ educate people about what is going on because I am lucky enough to have lived through a period when all that beauty still existed; it enriched our lives; it is worth fighting for.


    Farming worked well for over a thousand years here in the UK without pesticides of any kind. Britain was the bread basket of the Roman Empire from AD 64 to AD 400 and after that it exported wheat and barley to the world for centuries. It is a fallacy that crops cannot be raised without pesticides. Organic farmers do it all the time. A world record yield of rice was achieved recently by an Indian farmer with no pesticides whatever- check out this article:

    http://www.panna.org/blog/bumper-cro...no-ge-required

    I am just someone who loves bees, loves Nature, loves to eat good food and drink good beer - I do not earn a penny from campaigning, I just want to be able to keep bees in a landscape which does not kill them, every year.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post

    I am just someone who loves bees, loves Nature, loves to eat good food and drink good beer - I do not earn a penny from campaigning, I just want to be able to keep bees in a landscape which does not kill them, every year.
    So who are you? What is your real name? It would increase your credibility significantly to put this information forward. Where do you really live? I feel quite certain that most of the forum participants feel you are a paid lobbyist. It would enhance your message to be more forthcoming as to your real identity. Alas, I can anticipate your reply. Something to the effect that the neonics goons would come after you..... right?
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Are you a paid anti-neonic advocate? Seems to be all you post about.

    Are you familiar at all w/ keeping bees?

    From what I've seen here these four dogs are the conspiracy theories people like to declare when they are caught w/ their pants down. Look up the Stromnessbees character here and the citations he pushes for science.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by JClark View Post
    Are you a paid anti-neonic advocate? Seems to be all you post about.
    Maybe he is - I don't know. But almost for sure both sides have their own astroturfers on here. It would be pretty dumb of them to not wouldn't it? Take it all with a grain of salt IMHO.

    Anyway Europe is graciously supplying us with a very large scale demonstration/experiment. Whatever the results are the scales should fall from our eyes within a year or two.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by JClark View Post
    Are you a paid anti-neonic advocate? Seems to be all you post about.

    Are you familiar at all w/ keeping bees?

    From what I've seen here these four dogs are the conspiracy theories people like to declare when they are caught w/ their pants down. Look up the Stromnessbees character here and the citations he pushes for science.
    There have been several observations that Stromness and borderman are one in the same.... no proof just studies that show....

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    There have been several observations that Stromness and borderman are one in the same.... no proof just studies that show....
    That was what I was thinking when I wrote the comment. Didn't want to push conspiracy theories though.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by JClark View Post
    That was what I was thinking when I wrote the comment. Didn't want to push conspiracy theories though.
    What do yo want to bet he comes back with the 4 dogs defense??
    First he will deny it.....

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    There have been several observations that Stromness and borderman are one in the same.... no proof just studies that show....
    They think the same but they are not even the same gender!
    They do know each other though.

    That 4 dog defense is a laugh.
    No matter what way you chose to disagree with borderbeeman he can shoe-horn it into one of the categories and shout 'told you so'

    It is beyond his comprehension that people disagree with him simply because a lot of what he posts is inaccurate, exaggerated and spun.

    Everyone knows that insecticide kills insects but as Barry says why are millions of colonies exposed to neonicotinoids not in difficulties.
    Canada and Australia are two places which spring to mind - and yes I am sure he can come up with some data which shows some losses in both places but Barry's point is still the crux of the matter.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    They think the same but they are not even the same gender!
    They do know each other though.
    I think they share the same roof.
    Regards, Barry

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I think they share the same roof.
    Very similar IP numbers? Would not surprise me.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    So the 'Moderator' - the alleged 'creator' of this Forum chooses to join in the personal attacks and intimidation as well?

    No attempt to discuss the issues
    No attempt to discuss the facts
    No attempt to set an example for other users in terms of decent behavior and reasonable debate

    Your posting says more about you and the moral tone (or lack of it) which you are responsible for on this Forum than I could ever say.

    No point in REPORTING this to the 'Moderator' is there Mr Birkey?

    what does one do when those who are supposedly 'The Rule Makers' - refuse to conform to the rules which they themselves are happy to break?

    Don't worry, its a rhetorical question.

    I don't expect an answer from you.
    or reasonable debate
    or fairness
    or even a sense of honor

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Jonathan, you are not paying attention.
    The four Dog Defense is now The Five Dog Defense.
    It was decided that a FIFTH strategy of the poison manufacturers and industry trolls was:

    SUPPRESSION OF DISSENT

    It's odd that you forgot that because that is your primary role in the various Forums where you ply your trade.

    As usual, you make no attempt to engage in real discussion.
    You make no attempt to address the many peer-reviewed science studies which prove to anyone with a free mind (i.e. a mind uncontaminated by pesticide dollars) that neonics are a primary cause of bee deaths.
    Your veiled slur on my friendship, or not with Stromness Bees merely highlights the fact that your techniques, which you have used for years on the Scottish Beekeeping Forum, are:

    Defamation
    Innuendo
    Slurs and personal attacks
    Distraction
    Smokescreen

    However, your main role is undoubtedly SUPPRESSION OF FREE SPEECH.
    That is what you are paid to do.
    So I expect nothing better from you.

    By the way, you are failing.
    Truth will out.
    Truth IS out.
    27 countries just banned your favourite poisons, despite all your efforts.
    I hope you don't get paid by results, because European Science just crushed your gonads in a vice.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Neonicotinoids The Four Dog Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    Jonathan, you are not paying attention.
    The four Dog Defense is now The Five Dog Defense.
    It was decided that a FIFTH strategy of the poison manufacturers and industry trolls was:

    SUPPRESSION OF DISSENT
    Hmmm, "suppression of dissent", sounds evil. I posted a very civilized comment/question at Borderbeeman's blog, here:

    http://friendsofthebees.wordpress.com/

    My comment is "Awaiting Moderation". Would anyone care to guess how long it might be before my comment actually get published?

    I invite others to visit the link above.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

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