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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Glen Arm,MD
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    172

    Default does first queen out always kill all the others?

    my hive swarmed on april 17. i caught the swarm and hived them. i went in april25-8 days after swarming to make a split. i am pretty sure i saw some hatched queen cells as well as some unhatched. the unhatched didn't apear to be damaged as i would have expected if the newly hatched virgin would have found them. the hive was 4 medium boxes. i used a frame with 2 queen cells for the split as well as 9 other frames wth brood,honey nectar.the bees are thick on the 3 frames of brood. i am wondering if its possible that several queens hatched that day or the day before but didn't kill the unhatched queens. i didn't notice any damage to the unhatched cells. would it have been obvious if she had killed them? i hoping to go in to check both hives this saturday, 9 days after splitting the hive, 17 after the original hive swarmed. if the queen cells in the split haven't hatched then i'll give them a frame of eggs from the swarm hive. i'll wait alittle longer on the original hive to wait and see if i see eggs. if i don't i'll give them a frame of eggs also. does this seem like a good approach?
    thanks,
    crabbydad

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Glen Arm,MD
    Posts
    172

    Default Re: does first queen out always kill all the others?

    any ideas?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Roy, Wa
    Posts
    1,573

    Default Re: does first queen out always kill all the others?

    Generally as a rule of thumb the first queen hatched will eliminate all the other competion. But there are exceptions to that 'rule' during swarming situations, and depending on the variety of bees. Multiple queen swarm cells may not be distroyed and allowed to hatch to allow for cast swarms. I have also seen in my own hives two supercedure queens, both mated and laying in the same hive with the mother queen. It just depends on the hives mood, reason for making the cells in the first place.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Aberdeen, Idaho
    Posts
    403

    Default Re: does first queen out always kill all the others?

    No the first hatched does not always kill the others. In my experience if the first kills the others the side of the cell will be chewed open about midway from the top. Others have said they can sting the queens through the cell wall. I have had multiple queens emerge and each swarm, virgin swarm, with bees left after the primary swarm. These virgin swarms are about the size of a baseball. When I have new queens undergoing mating flights I will put in eggs once a week untill the new queen starts laying. This will give the hive a week head start if the first queen doen not make it back. It will also stop laying workers from developing.
    Dave

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Novato, CA
    Posts
    554

    Default Re: does first queen out always kill all the others?

    Others with more experience should reply but here is what I've learned in my classes. The cells may have holes in them at the bottom where you can't see the holes. Also if a hive is in swarm mode (may not apply here) the queen gets harassed and leaves and the next queen out also is kept from killing other queen cells, gets harrassed and also leaves and so on. That is why one can have multiple swarms from a hive and swarms can have virgin queens.

    Please let us know what you find out on Sat.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Belfast, Ireland
    Posts
    393

    Default Re: does first queen out always kill all the others?

    If the hive is strong it could throw half a dozen cast swarms. Some of these could have two or three virgins in them. In my experience the first queen to emerge might tear down a cell or two but she will be off with a swarm if there are plenty of bees in the box.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    5,297

    Default Re: does first queen out always kill all the others?

    The first virgin out, always, "tries" to locate and kill any other queens or potential queens (cells). They pull larvae out of cells that haven't been sealed yet, and they sting larva/pupa inside sealed cells, then the workers tear down those cells (where it was stung), and remove the sting-killed immature queens. When the bees are in swarm mode, they will often protect cells from virgins, and they will even, sometimes, hold virgins prisoner in their cells, for their own purposes (after-swarms). Sometimes virgins overlook cells, then, if other virgins emerge, they will fight it out.

    I've even had virgins from one mating nuc, enter nearby mating nucs and fight with those queens there. And it has been way to common for a nearby virgin to enter my cell builder and destroy all of a batch of cultured queen cells.
    48 years - 50 hives - TF
    Joseph Clemens -- Website Under Constructioni

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Shelbyville,Indiana,USA
    Posts
    164

    Default Re: does first queen out always kill all the others?

    I just had one nuc that made 10 cells. 2 hatched out and I got to them and cut out the rest and made new nucs from them. While I was doing the removal though, the 2 queens that did hatch was at war with each other on the frame. I left an extra cell in there for back up. Did get some nice pictures of one hatching out though

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...8261732&type=1

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Glen Arm,MD
    Posts
    172

    Default Re: does first queen out always kill all the others?

    this was a very strong hive in 4 mediums. even after the large swarm that left, the hive was still very large. i'm hoping the cells i put in my split are good. i will check saturday and report back hopefully with pics. the cells that i used for my split did not seem damaged to me but they could have been stung thru. thanks for the replies

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Fredericksburg, Va
    Posts
    793

    Default Re: does first queen out always kill all the others?

    A couple of years ago I had a 5 frame finisher with multiple virgins. I had miscalculated due to warmer than expected temps. When I went in to install roller cages I found 6 virgins running around and quickly captured them into cages.
    Bee all you can Bee!
    http://www.hamiltonapiary.net

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Glen Arm,MD
    Posts
    172

    Default Re: does first queen out always kill all the others?

    couldn't wait any longer with the nice weather today so i went in to check on my queens.sarted with the split,main hive queen-2.jpgmain queen-1.jpgsplit queen-1.jpgsplit queen-2.jpgswarm hive brood.jpgswarm hive brood-2.jpg i pulled the frame the queen cell was on in the split and there she was walking around the frame. opened up the main hive, on the second frame i pulled, i could hear her piping, but couldn't see her at first. then i saw her she was walking around the frame piping. i thought only newly hatched queens piped? the hive still seemed to be full of bees and lots of traffic at front. i added a super with 9 frames and closed it up. i went to the swarm hive. the second box is 70% drawn out. i went down in the bottom box and pulled a frame. both sides were covered with capped brood. i could see the frames weren't capped. i didn't bother pulling any more frames. i will go in in another week or so and see if my queens are laying. i have attached some pics

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