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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Just had a random thought about Humans finding other ways.

    Gas is $3.40 a gallon where I live but remember when it first hit $4.00 (Give or take) and the country was in disbelief, where will it stop? People have found a way, we might not have other choices where to buy gas cheaper but we as Humans now have cars that get better MPG including Hybrids like I drive.

    at $4.00 a gallon gas....
    For the person who drives a 20 MPG truck or car with (Example) a 10 gallon tank will pay $40.00 to fill up only to go another 200 miles.

    Those who own a Camry Hybrid that gets 40 MPG pays the same price but goes 400 miles on a 10 gallon tank. (200 more miles)

    Point is we are finding other ways when we have little choice to buy expensive gas. So you can look at it this way, the person who owns the Hybrid is really paying $2.00 a gallon (Even if he is not) to go twice as far as the guy with the 20 MPG vehicle. (Of course this is an example and not all cars get 20 or 40. However a Prius can get 51 MPG so...)


    Farmers will find other ways... maybe even better ways.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    well they banned neonics in France on corn, canola and sunflowers in 2000AD - that's thirteen years ago.
    I have not seen food riots or mass starvation in the streets of Paris reported as yet. France has arguably the most diverse agriculture Europe - crop yields are unaffected. As for 'knee jerk' reactions, the first reports of mass bee deaths in relation to neonics was in France in 1992 - that is 21 years ago. The pesticides were supposed to be tested for safety BEFORE they were unleashed on the world. Here we are 21 years down the line and Bayer and Syngenta have just been ordered to go back and do the tests which should have been done but enver were: full bee-life-cycle studies; soil and water persistence; chronic sub lethal poisoning tests. Never done. Nada. Zip. Well, the tests will be done now and they will have to PROVE these pesticides are safe for bees - with the whole world watching.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    My posts are mostly about neonics because my bees are dying; I am only a hobby beekeeper with ten hives, but I have lost 8 out of 10 colonies this winter. It is not varroa that is killing my bees; it isn't viruses, or bacteria, or climate change, or any of the other smokescreen diversions the industry puts out. It is because the landscape all around me, for 20 miles in every direction is dominated by yellow oilseed rape fields, and green barley and wheat fields. Every single seed, in every single field is treated with a neurotoxic poison that is 7,000 times more deadly to bees than DDT.
    Perhaps your queen's genetics are highly inbred? Perhaps you don't have enough experience to examine bee colony and take the appropriate action to rectify problems that would be obvious to someone with more experience. All we seem to know about you is that you're convinced beyond any shadow that neonics are causing the problems that you are seeing. I too live in an area that "every single seed" is treated (corn, cotton, and soybeans), so in the rare times that I'm not snoozing, I've objectively looked at these claims and compared them with my observations. What I see is that there is ZERO deleterious impact on my bees. Many of my colonies sit 10 yards (or less) from cotton and soybean fields. I have brood comb that is 12 years old and still in my colonies. My hives are thriving. I would highly suspect that all my comb would test positive for a host of evil ag chems. I do not treat for varroa, but I invest a lot of effort breeding bees that thrive.

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    The 27 countries of Europe ...
    Wouldn't be the first time lemmings ran off a cliff.


    Thank you moderators for moving this to the appropriate forum.
    Horseshoe Point Honey -- http://localvahoney.com/

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post

    At $200 a hive that's $2 billion worth of bees.

    Many bee farmers have gone bankrupt; others have cut their losses and gone out of the business. Some of them have been in the bee business for three generations.

    Never mind. You just keep planting those neurotoxins in the soil. Screw the bees, the birds and the wildlife.
    Do you draw water from a well near your fields by any chance?

    Yes, my water comes straight from there, as well as the honey we produce. Like all alarmist you assume to blame something beyound your control... here in the US it has been that dang Mite you should have kept over there.
    All those french beeks would be gone then... no bees anywhere,,, and yet here we are..... I have more bees in my Yard than you have ever owned...... And nothing but roundup ready crops cover 70% of my forage area.... All the buggy whip makers are gone fromt he US also.... as well as the Farriers, and the door to door salesmen... its called progress, move along...... But hey if your happy great.... Just stay over there, put your nose in the air, leave us alone and in 20 years show us how all your problems are gone....

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    There has been a 50-70% decline in the 19 most common farmland birds in the UK: sparrows and starlings, once seen in flocks of thousands, are now just gone, not a trace.
    In the USA, farmland birds swarm in the vicinity of our neonic treated soybean and corn monocultures:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tta4mY_KzBE

    Earthworms are abundant in our neonic treated soybean and corn fields:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a13QsgMj4h4

    If they wanted to, Bayer & Syngenta could set up Webcams along the perimeter edges of neonic treated Ag fields so that the public could see for themselves all the birds, bees and butterflies that exist there. Or set out cage traps and glue board traps in or near neonic treated fields with webcams focused on the traps recording all the bugs and wildlife that are captured.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    Industry strategy number 5 - if someone offers a piece of evidence that you can't counter - attack the person, rather than the content of the discussion. it's called an 'ad hominem' attack and its been in the Playbook since the time of Aristotle, who first listed the ten kinds of 'false arguments'.

    BTW the only time I foam at the mouth is when my electric toothbrush is buzzing away. PS, the word is 'hobbyist' not 'hobbiest', but I guess spelling isn't your forte; neither is reasoned discussion.
    Toodle pip.
    Lets see how this works. You complain about an "ad hominem" attack, "- attack the person, rather than the content of the discussion", then, in the same post, you highlight a simple spelling error of a different poster! Is that the "reasoned discussion" that you claim to seek? Haven't you got a more intelligent response?
    Are you familiar with the phrase "its like the pot calling the kettle black"?

    Toodle pip, indeed!


    Graham
    --- Victor Hugo - "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.”

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    My posts are mostly about neonics because my bees are dying; I am only a hobby beekeeper with ten hives, but I have lost 8 out of 10 colonies this winter. It is not varroa that is killing my bees; it isn't viruses, or bacteria, or climate change, or any of the other smokescreen diversions the industry puts out. It is because the landscape all around me, for 20 miles in every direction is dominated by yellow oilseed rape fields, and green barley and wheat fields.
    Canadians manage with 71 million hectares of seed treated oil seed rape? It makes up over 80% of the honey crop.

    Australia has neonics everywhere and has no big problems compared to some other places.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    If you take a trip to France, you will find the farmers fat, happy and drinking their favourite wine. Agriculture in France is booming - no drop in yields or profits.
    This is a rather misleading statement. In fact, French agriculture is heavily govt. subsidised because it is so inefficient. French farmers are incredibly militant and periodically drive tractors etc right into the cities where they stage large and angry demonstrations demanding even higher subsidies. There are thousands of them because they only have a few acres each.
    My own country gets most of it's income from agricultural exports, French subsidised agriculture is a bone of contention here because our own agriculture is not subsidised and competing on the world market with heavily subsidised agriculture from the likes of France seems rather unfair.

    I'm sure their farmers do spend a bit of time toasting themselves with wine & getting fat though must be a pretty good lifestyle LOL.

    As an aside, CCD does not exist here, but neonicitiniods are widely used. There is some concern among our commercial beekeepers about neonicitiniods just incase the stuff we hear from overseas turns out to be true, but as yet, there is no problem.

    However it would not be correct to say neonicitiniods are harmless to bees, neonicitiniods are an insecticide, they are designed to kill insects, so of course they will kill bees. But are they more harmful than other insecticides? Well that's the part nobody has shown.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    Australia has neonics everywhere and has no big problems compared to some other places.
    The anti-neonic people do not sincerely care about pollinators, that's why they express no empathy for the extra numbers of pollinators that will be killed by the neonic ban via the conversion of existing wildland into farmland to make up for the deminished crop yields nor do they express empathy for the extra numbers of pollinators that will be killed because farmers have to go back to the old fashioned foliar methods of spraying the crop.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    I hate to be a buzzkill, but Randy Oliver has a well-reasoned and factual article on this winter's losses. Long story short, he's more inclined to blame the losses on bad weather and beekeeper failure than on neonics.

    http://gallery.mailchimp.com/5fd2b1a...ng2013_opt.pdf

    Here's my view. I would rather conclude that a problem is my own **** fault, rather than the fault of forces beyond my control. That at least gives me some hope that I can do something about the problem.

    One of the things that I believe led Randy Oliver to his conclusions is the existence of Tim Ives, a treatment free beekeeper whose yards are in corn and soy country in Indiana. He's doing fine, with winter losses way below the national average for treated hives. How do you explain this without wondering what he's doing (or isn't doing) compared to the beekeepers who have had such terrible losses this spring?

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Quote Originally Posted by shinbone View Post
    I am just a hobbiest and I have not followed the details of the neonic controversy.

    However, to me, borderbeeman is so over-the-top foaming-at-the mouth biased, that I do not trust a single word he/she says without corroboration from another source. If he/she says the sun has risen, I look out the window to check.

    That's just me.
    I thought the 'rules' of this forum were intended to defend people from personal attacks, insults and offensive language? Or does that rule only apply to those who are 'pro-pesticides'? I would say that calling someone 'foaming at the mouth biased' is a pretty clear insult in anybody's book? Is the Moderator going to do anything about this?

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    You have more than just neonicotinoids to worry about in new Zealand. The famous Anchor Brand Butter which we have all known and loved here in the UK for generations, was recently found to be laced with DDT - a pesticide that has been banned in this country since 1982 and in America since about 1978.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...DT-butter.html


    "PESTICIDE residues have been found by UK Government researchers in leading baby food brands, Anchor butter and Birds Eye products aimed at children. A study by the Government's Pesticides Safety Directorate found the banned chemical DDT in a high proportion of samples of Anchor Butter sold in the UK.

    Other chemicals, mainly fungicides, were found in Alphabites and potato waffles sold by Birds Eye. Two Cow & Gate baby foods contained traces of a fungicide legally sprayed on potatoes.

    Apart from DDT all the levels of the other chemicals were within safety levels approved throughout Europe.

    Nine blocks of butter - eight of them Anchor brand - were found to contain DDT, a chemical which has been linked to cancer and effects on the nervous system.

    A spokesman for rural affairs ministry, DEFRA, said the discovery of the DDT in New Zealand is believed to be linked to a pest problem in the country more than a decade ago.

    He said:
    'There was heavy spraying of the landscape at that time and the chemical is believed to have remained in the ground. It appears that it has been absorbed by the grass and then gone into the cows and their milk.'
    The finding is highly embarrassing for the New Zealand Milk company which is responsible for the Anchor brand and is currently running a marketing brand boasting of the health benefits of the butter. "

    DDT almost wiped out the Peregrine falcon in the UK in the 1960s - along with many other birds, and many human cancers are believed to result from this appalling pesticide - which is extremely lipophilic - fat loving - every single man, woman and child in the UK, Europe and America has DDT in their tissues, especially breast tissue, more than 40 years after it was banned.

    It appears that we learn nothing. We are not separate from 'The Environment' - we are part and parcel of it.
    when we spray pesticides onto the landscape, we are spraying them into our children's tissues. it all comes back home, there is no 'out there' to throw things away.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Driving North w/ a load of bees on my F-450 and listening to the radio I heard about this ban in Europe and it was stated that U.S. Beekeepers are having a really hard time providing pollination to those who need it. Is that accurate? Have any growers who need bees for pollination not gotten them? Very many? Crisis level shortage of pollinating colonies?

    I am so far having the best Spring in years. I have gotten pretty close to my goal of filling up all my pallets and nuc boxes w/ bees. Put more bees in NC Blueberrys this year and will be putting more bees than ever in NY Apple orchards this year too. But I am only one beekeeper.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    I thought the 'rules' of this forum were intended to defend people from personal attacks, insults and offensive language? Or does that rule only apply to those who are 'pro-pesticides'? I would say that calling someone 'foaming at the mouth biased' is a pretty clear insult in anybody's book? Is the Moderator going to do anything about this?
    Everything takes time. Moderation isn't instantaneous. Report the Post if you feel it necassary. Use the triangle at the lower left corner of the Post you object to. Or, shrug your shoulders and ignore the jab.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Borderbeeman, you held up what the French are doing as a shining example of success. The reality is different and my post was right on topic, pointing that out.

    I'm rather surprised that you kick up about personal attacks, but right after I countered your misleading statements about what's happening in France, you post an off topic, strongly worded criticism of my country. Instead of producing any reasoned rebuttal of what I had said.

    Trying to discredit the messenger?

    Something about pots and kettles come to mind?

    For your information, long time ago DDT was widely used in New Zealand. It's use was severely curtailed by law in the 1970's, and phased out completely by 1989. Being replaced by products such as neonicitiniods.

    You think it's a good plan to revert back to the old chemicals of the past?
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 04-30-2013 at 05:49 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    I thought the 'rules' of this forum were intended to defend people from personal attacks, insults and offensive language? Or does that rule only apply to those who are 'pro-pesticides'? I would say that calling someone 'foaming at the mouth biased' is a pretty clear insult in anybody's book? Is the Moderator going to do anything about this?
    I think you have been identified as a "1 issue guy with an agenda", sort of a troll.... out of 160 or so posts I saw nothing but posts about neonics.... Perhaps the mods have decided that if you are not going to contribute in a more varied way, that you can look after yourself.

    Tell us about your 10 hives, how did they die... CCD?

    BTW.... where are those 20 miles of continuous rape-seed outside Edinburgh? I've been there.. and doubt I saw 20 acres of arable land... unless you count grazing land for Cheviots....
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Quote Originally Posted by shinbone View Post
    I am just a hobbiest and I have not followed the details of the neonic controversy.

    However, to me, borderbeeman is so over-the-top foaming-at-the mouth biased, that I do not trust a single word he/she says without corroboration from another source. If he/she says the sun has risen, I look out the window to check.

    That's just me.

    PLEASE NOTE:
    You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use the Beesource Beekeeping Forums to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree to be civil and "observe with both friend and foe the ordinary rules of courtesy." You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by BeeSource.com.

    Be civil. Personal attacks are never okay. We can disagree and debate a subject, which is fine. You'll find no "know-it-all's" here. No one on this forum is in a position where they can't be questioned or disagreed with in a civil manner.

    MODERATOR - do the rules mean anything, or can anyone call someone 'foaming at the mouth', 'biased' and opine that he does not 'trust a single word'. is this abusive? is this defamatory? Is this civil.

    Over to you.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Quote Originally Posted by borderbeeman View Post
    I have posted several things recently because there was a massive political change in the pesticide issue yesterday. The 27 countries of Europe - with a combined population considerably larger than the United States, just decided to BAN the neonics. Sorry if I disturbed your snooze, but for an entire CONTINENT to ban a group of pesticides is pretty earth-shaking news in the small world of beekeeping. Moreover, America has lost 5,650,000 bee colonies since 2007. That is simply devastating. My posts are mostly about neonics because my bees are dying; I am only a hobby beekeeper with ten hives, but I have lost 8 out of 10 colonies this winter. It is not varroa that is killing my bees; it isn't viruses, or bacteria, or climate change, or any of the other smokescreen diversions the industry puts out. It is because the landscape all around me, for 20 miles in every direction is dominated by yellow oilseed rape fields, and green barley and wheat fields. Every single seed, in every single field is treated with a neurotoxic poison that is 7,000 times more deadly to bees than DDT.
    I didn't find your "snooze" comment very civil either, and in my opinion on par with the "foaming" comment. So just be careful claiming to be a victim - it goes both ways.
    Horseshoe Point Honey -- http://localvahoney.com/

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    I am hoping Borderbee, that the moderators have realized you start this with a lot of one issue post, that are based on your opinions and that you totally disregard the information provided to you by dozens of beeks who live under these conditions. I have not seen any of your post where your trying to be a better beekeeper, or actually asking for advice, instead you come and post inflammatory comments and generally try to rile people up.
    I don't believe shin bone was attacking you, but accurately describing your methods.......

    But mabe Shinbone has been in the neonics and is not in his right mind........

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Europe bans neonics in all 27 countries - landmark day for bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Borderbeeman, you held up what the French are doing as a shining example of success. The reality is different and my post was right on topic, pointing that out.

    I'm rather surprised that you kick up about personal attacks, but right after I countered your misleading statements about what's happening in France, you post an off topic, strongly worded criticism of my country. Instead of producing any reasoned rebuttal of what I had said.

    Trying to discredit the messenger?

    Something about pots and kettles come to mind?

    For your information, long time ago DDT was widely used in New Zealand. It's use was severely curtailed by law in the 1970's, and phased out completely by 1989. Being replaced by products such as neonicitiniods.

    You think it's a good plan to revert back to the old chemicals of the past?
    My point was that Anchor Butter from New Zealand was just banned in the UK because the ten samples examined contained DDT - in 2013. Several questions arise from that regulatory action:

    1. Why were cows eating grass contaminated with DDT?
    2. why did New Zealand farmers spray DDT on grass pasture?
    3. why is it showing up in New Zealand milk and butter today?

    Maybe you should read up on the lax use of pesticides in your own country?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/ne...ectid=10857059

    Sue Kedgley: Government sits on its hands as honey bees die
    Sue Kedgley is a former Green MP.

    I've been contacted recently by several beekeepers who are worried about what is happening to our nation's honey bees.

    A Bay of Plenty beekeeper recently lost 230 of his beehives - or half of his operation. He's been beekeeping since 1981, and has never had losses like this before.

    He says other beekeepers have experienced similar losses. A Northland beekeeper recently lost 900 of his 1000 hives; another has lost 400 hives, and others last year lost half of their hives.

    The Bay of Plenty keeper is wondering what is causing such huge losses.

    The 2012 winter was harsh, and many factors can contribute to honey bee losses -including pathogens, the Varroa mite (which weakens the immune systems of bees and puts them under stress) and more intensive farming that is wiping out forage and natural food sources for bees.

    But he suspects the main cause of his losses is the cocktail of pesticides and chemicals that are used in many kiwifruit orchards where bees pollinate. Since the advent of the kiwifruit disease PSA, growers are using even more pesticides on kiwifruit orchards, and he is concerned that some growers, in their desperation to control the disease, have resorted to using illegal as well as legal pesticides and other chemicals.


    These beekeepers are not worried only about the bee losses they have witnessed over the past year. They are also worried about the Government's lack of action to help beekeepers, and the lack of any nationwide system of monitoring bees in New Zealand, to establish whether these bee losses are random, or part of a wider pattern.

    There used to be a whole section of the Agriculture Department that was focused on helping beekeepers and monitoring the health of honeybees.

    But that was disbanded during the era of deregulation, and now there is nobody in Government that beekeepers can turn to for advice, and nobody who is monitoring what is happening to the nation's bees.

    There doesn't seem to be anybody within the Ministry for Primary Industries who is responsible for protecting the health of our bees, or for ensuring we don't suffer from the massive bee losses that are occurring in many countries overseas.

    And there seems to be little, if any, research going on into the effect of various pesticides on bees - despite the fact that pesticides have become the prime suspect in colony collapse disorder that is decimating bee numbers in many parts of the world.

    You would hope that the Government would respond with some urgency to scientific findings that a new generation of pesticides that are widely used in New Zealand are poisonous to bees, even at extremely low doses that had been assumed to be safe.

    Our use of this group of pesticides, called neonicotinoids, has vastly increased over recent years. They are used to coat a wide variety of seeds our growers and farmers use, such as grass seed, rye, maize, squash, sweet corn, pumpkin and even brassica.


    MY COMMENTS
    Seems like New Zealand has exactly the same epidemiology of neonics and bees we have seen in the UK, in France, Germany, Italy and the USA. Australia is exactly the same.

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