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  1. #441
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    North Liberty, IN
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    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by D Semple View Post
    Tim,

    How are you are getting such a great early spring build up?

    How do you like to set up your hive for winter?

    Thanks
    Please watch the swearing it will get you run also, I for one would like to learn more from your posts.

    That's just what they do if the have the resources to do so. So this doesn't happen in single deep systems? I don't know??? Can't get a single to over-winter to find out..

  2. #442
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
    Posts
    2,644

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Tim, thanks for your input. we may not agree on systems, but thats not a problem....! to each our own. Until you got here yourself there was a lot of wild speculation and and exaurations as to your methods.

  3. #443
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Tim, was trying to argue your method, just understand the reason. I am a bit farther south, and winter singles fine... but its not your weather thats for sure........ I chose toto run more bottoms and forgo the ladders and helpers.... but am not argueing you method at all, its your hives.

    You make a staement there thats a bit interesting... and thats "gambeling the loss of treatment free genes" to me what your saying is that the treatment free is developed more around a huge winter cluster than genetics.......
    Huge winter cluster... No that's a normal winter cluster once you leave bees to their own limitations. All hives are doing so not just a few.

    You cannot accomplish the same results with junk food raised bees and trying to build them up the same. So yes it is genetics.

  4. #444
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
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    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Tim, thanks for your input. we may not agree on systems, but thats not a problem....! to each our own. Until you got here yourself there was a lot of wild speculation and and exaurations as to your methods.


    Comically yes there was. Was laughing so hard on some comments. I generally stay away from sites like this and usually get kickoff anyways. Which personally really dont care. I don't need to justify anything to anybody.

  5. #445
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,531

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    tim, it sounds to me like you were able to let the bees guide you into what they want to do, and have found a system that works perfectly for your region. way to go!

    that's what i am trying to do in my location. with the milder winter here and with no feeding, the bees adjust themselves to about four to five frames for the winter cluster.

    even 4-5 frame nucs can make it through winter here, getting down to just a couple of frames of bees.

    the other difference (as david pointed out) is that our summer dearth typically lasts a couple of months, during which the bees use up stores as opposed to making more.

    i'm still trying to let the bees show me how i can help them more than get in their way.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  6. #446
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,438

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    People don't get kicked off "sites like this" by justifying or not justifying anything to anybody.
    Regards, Barry

  7. #447
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    Exactly! The same reason that treaters and sugar feeders keep doing what they are doing - it is working for them, and their living depends on it.

    But I agree with you. For beginners tall hives can produce honey crops sooner and with less investment. For anyone I guess. If you are willing and able to deal with the tall stacks. If not then go your own way.

    Question - you manage some hives for honey, the ones that you don't have supers for you split, and sell some of the increase - right? What do you do with the rest of the group you split? Do they get rotated into production somehow - or just increase comb and other resources?

    Also, you Must have an occasional tall hive that goes queenless. How do you monitor and manage that? I assume that you are not doing major inspections of them during honey season since swarm management is integrated in the system. Around here they would get robbed out if you were lucky, but more likely they would be destroyed - comb and all - by an incredible disgusting mass of hive beetles and wax moths.
    2011 was the only year I sold splits. Due to buying house, moving shop and not having more equipment made up or having the cash after the one time payment plan of buying house(s)

    With the PeaceBees/Unity Garden Project with several newbees. I started doing what I did with UG. Unity I took 2 splits, they put their boxes on. This year I showed them how to do splits. They keep their boxes with bees I keep mine. Well I started doing the same with the newbees. But I don't get paid for the bees till split next spring. I don't lose equipment and don't have to make so much more up.

  8. #448
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
    Posts
    2,644

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    Huge winter cluster... No that's a normal winter cluster once you leave bees to their own limitations. All hives are doing so not just a few.

    You cannot accomplish the same results with junk food raised bees and trying to build them up the same. So yes it is genetics.

    I disagree with that comment, I don't know if you tried the same methods with packages as your doing now, or by feeding. I have several hives that match or exceed yours that are fed HFCS and all the honey is taken from them. and they are survivovrs and treatment free also. but they are wintered in doubles, buildup in triples. and make5-6lbs of comb honey. the only difference is I don't leave supers on. they have one super that stays, and I run Comb supers which are remove as soon as possible. Come fall all extractable honey is removed and they are fed HFCS until spring. I Haven't lost one of them in 4 years (only keep 3 going) they do fine on artificial feed.
    Unfortunatly they tend to be a lot of work and are swarmy every 2 weeks they are torn down and split as needed until around mid june. I don't like swarms myself....

    While your methods are interesting, not everyone here is capable of handling deeps and ladders and has to helpers. in fact a lot like meds cause of the weight. your doing great, but I see no silver bullets and running down others methods is non productive and a bit narrow minded

  9. #449
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Everyone in my area tries it with packages every year. 07' I had 10 packages. So. Yes I have tried it in MY area. Dead bees don't do anything for me.

  10. #450
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Ray: I don't believe anyone on here has ridiculed Tim. Frankly I would like to know more about specifically what he is doing. Real world experiences are always meaningful to me. Keeping a lot of honey on your hives isn't really a treatment free strategy in and of itself though. I assume there is a bit more to it than that. The real key, of course isn't so much what you get off your big hives it's minimizing your non productive hives to increase your average across the board. In my operation seeing one piled up a lot higher than the rest always leaves me wondering if I did something wrong on the smaller hives. Uniformity tells me I have maximized production......at least that's how I look at it.

    Weaker hives are split. The strongest hives are the one producing drones first. I'm genetically increasing to maximize. After period of time there are no nonproductive hives.

    Someone ask what about if a hive goes queenless? I go by averages of hive activities. I tell within a minute if a hive has a problem. The more hives you have the easier to see the averages.

  11. #451
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,373

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    On this forum my hands are a bit tied, Tim, I can't really swap methods or advocate anything other than treatment free beekeeping. I am intrigued by what you are doing but not really sure how it my apply to our operation. It appears to me that your primary defense against varroa and your ability to stay treatment free lies in splitting to stay ahead of varroa which is what many are already doing who are able to stay treatment and I consider that a big apart of our success as well. Are you able to keep these heavily populated hives going for a second straight year without excessive mite buildup and if so what mechanism do you attribute that to?
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #452
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    On this forum my hands are a bit tied, Tim, I can't really swap methods or advocate anything other than treatment free beekeeping. I am intrigued by what you are doing but not really sure how it my apply to our operation. It appears to me that your primary defense against varroa and your ability to stay treatment free lies in splitting to stay ahead of varroa which is what many are already doing who are able to stay treatment and I consider that a big apart of our success as well. Are you able to keep these heavily populated hives going for a second straight year without excessive mite buildup and if so what mechanism do you attribute that to?
    Some are since started in 2007. Them are not split, I just super them up every year. I'm sure pre 2010 I was losing swarms. But was still getting 4-5 supers. Which at that time thought I was doing great.

  13. #453
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,079

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    Them are not split, I just super them up every year.
    Tim, I keep running into this accusation as well. People tell me all the time "you just split to outbreed the mites." No, I really don't. Honey production hives are not split. My ten year old treatment-free hive has not been split in several years. I see splitting as of benefit in the beginning when the bees have little resistance to mites, but eventually it is no longer needed. The bees are now resistant to mites, by whatever aspect, they are.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  14. #454
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    I have mentioned before that there have been a number of reports on the 'pathogen spillover' of DWV between Honeybees and Bumble Bees.

    I think that keeping mite levels in check by splitting, etc. is a far safer methodology than using the attenuated mites/virus approach. We know how mites and viruses (like DWV) become attenuated in Honeybees. Unfortunately, they can still spillover into other pollinators both managed and native.

    Non-native bees, non-native mites, and non-native viruses really aren't a good subject for 'natural selection' experiments by beekeepers.

  15. #455
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,531

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    tim, sorry if you've already cover this but do you put all seven supers on at once or add them as they grow their population.

    i get the part about keeping the first super foundation. but when it comes to the remaining supers, do you try to keep the most filled/capped moved up to the top or does it matter?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #456
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    tim, sorry if you've already cover this but do you put all seven supers on at once or add them as they grow their population.

    i get the part about keeping the first super foundation. but when it comes to the remaining supers, do you try to keep the most filled/capped moved up to the top or does it matter?
    Depends how far away the yard is. Further yards I just put the 7 on leave them alone.

    Closer yards. Yes I'll rotate the new supers down to bottom of stack. Unless on a black locust flow... Then I'll shift drawn together instead of checker boarding supers.

    If I want to slow a hive down, then I'll bee more aggressive on making them draw new supers. But again not on a Black Locust flow.
    At my house, neighbors has probably 5 acres of black locust. Original yard is on 3-4 acres of black locust.

  17. #457
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    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,531

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    understood tim, thanks.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #458
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    deknow - your insight about the moving of honey in early spring is the second time that I have heard that described. Ed Holcomb who I have mentioned before says that is one of the things that you accomplish by reversing hive bodies - the disruption causes the bees to move honey (in their stomachs of course) and stimulates brood rearing much like a nectar flow. But in the configuration that you are describing it also opens up additional brood area, and gets them storing honey over head - both good things for hive growth and swarm mitigation.

    Tim Ives (If you are still here, and would participate a bit more please) - what was your bee keeping background and experience prior to buying all of those packages in 2001 if you don't mind saying?

    Everyone - I personally find the discussion here very interesting and informative, even if I don't buy in 100% to what any one other person is promoting, don't you?

    You know we can discuss, disagree, and learn from each other (even those we don't fully agree with) as long as it's civil enough that those we would learn from can enjoy it. Or at least stand it.

    Know what I'm saying?
    They're turning the 3rd deep into bees. That's easy enough to prove with my YouTube hive. First vid was taken 3/15. New pollen started coming in 2/29. There was still snow on the ground 2/26. Then a abnormal warm up. That hive had every bit of 40# of bees plus whatever out foraging?? Some will question why didn't I split it. NO DRONES. Drone brood wasn't even capped yet. So wouldnt have mature drones for atleast 29 days.

  19. #459
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    For $30k, you could get 300 nucs @ $100 each.

    So I wipe out my winter stores of 150 hives to BUY 100 nucs. Lose 8+ years of sugar free raised bees. Nucs won't put up a early honey crop, so I lose production.

    Then will have to deal with mites and whatever.

    If nucs all come from one source, no longer have genetic diversity.

    Lose out on Apple/ Blueberry pollination gigs.

    I'll just leave the 30k on. Sounds cheaper to me.

  20. #460
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Yes , of course. The early buildup is the key.

    You need those 'fat bees'.

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