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  1. #401
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,236

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    If he wants to directly challenge WLC he should do so. I read an open question "to have fun figuring things out" and an assumption that it's either his 8% or everyone else's 30% losses. If I misread his intent I apologize, if not I think he owes an apology to others. I, and I am sure many others, are willing to give Tim's ideas on beekeeping a fair hearing. I always
    pay close attention to a doer like Tim who is "walking the walk" and giving us real life experiences.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  2. #402
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    I thought that Tim himself claimed that he could get 1,000 pounds of honey per hive?

    Or, did I just imagine that?

  3. #403
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,541

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    However the other driver in this is that along the thread Tim didn't participate, but instead, another member with little knowledge of bees, has been making wild and over exuberant claims on Tim's behalf, some of which have since been denied by Tim. This, and these claims created some rather understandable scepticism, which extended to the whole thing even the true claims.
    Perhaps...I haven't been following closely. Is there a post (or could there be one) where someone who has been following point out the incorrect claims made? ...but having been misquoted in a lot of contexts, I certainly can't lay that on Tim. I've heard that he has a lot of material on Facebook, but I don't do Facebook, so I haven't seen what is there.
    ...but WLC's antics predated all of this.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  4. #404
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Deknow:

    Take a close look at the Mike Risk setup. We know what's in those top deeps, and we know what they're going to be used for in July.
    Last edited by Barry Digman; 05-28-2013 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Personal

  5. #405
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,541

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    If he wants to directly challenge WLC he should do so.
    On principle, one shouldn't have to challenge rude, anonymous trolls when they are calling your experience lies. The community should always strive to improve itself.
    WLC has been unfair (and that is a generous characterization on my part) in the extreme. If you think he has been fair, you defend him.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  6. #406
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Dean:

    Tim called Mel 'a sugar feeding idiot'.

    He said more than that as well.

    I'm not the one with the problem. Really.

    I was sceptical before.

    Now, I'm not.

  7. #407
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,718

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Perhaps...I haven't been following closely. Is there a post (or could there be one) where someone who has been following point out the incorrect claims made?deknow
    Yes there is. I'd suggest you read the thread.

    Tim himself, presents as having the ego of Donald Trump, and prepared to make a few wild and likely untrue claims himself, I find it hard to learn from such people.

    This can make it hard to sift the wheat from the chaff. However my attitude is like Jims. I'm hoping there is some wheat and am looking for it.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #408
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Oldtimer:

    That's why I looked up another Michigan beekeeper, Mike Risk, to see what he was doing with tower hives.

    If you take a gander at the photo, click to enlarge, you can get a very good idea of the setup.

    I found the picture to be worth a thousand words.

    WLC.

  9. #409
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Farmington, New Mexico
    Posts
    6,503

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    I was curious about ventilation and traffic congestion in a tower. In this picture of Mike Risk's hives that WLC refers to it's clear that the supers are offset and that the bees have multiple entrances in addition to extra ventilation. Interesting.

    http://www.riskshoney.com/wp-content.../DSC003341.jpg
    Nobody ruins my day without my permission, and I refuse to grant it...

  10. #410
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,277

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    my original comment was 'to each his own'.

    the cool thing about this forum is that there are no two beekeepers that do things exactly the same way.

    i have really benefited from getting exposed to all of the different approaches and applying what is useful to my apiary.

    as i mentioned working tall hives isn't something that appeals to me but i wouldn't criticize anyone for wanting to do it.

    as roland and the others point out, three deeps used as singles can net close to the same honey combined as having the three stacked.
    now that tim has shared that about seven mediums harvested twice each is what he shoots for in a typical year,

    and doing the math,

    seven mediums filled twice per season @ 34 lbs. is 576 lbs, or 4.66 supers per deep of bees.

    4-5 supers harvested is about where i will be this year with my most established hives, (the one's that had mostly drawn comb already, running single deeps and medium supers, and that's with no treatments or feeding.

    since i work alone, i have decided that five supers above a deep is my limit for stack height, and i'll probably keep it to four next year by rotating drawn supers in as i extract.

    i don't see why i shouldn't be able to average 125-150 lbs. harvest once i have enough drawn comb. (assuming good weather and successful swarm prevention).

    that's going to be 3-4 supers of spring honey, and another one in september just before the goldenrod starts. i'll leave about one and a half supers per colony for overwintering.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #411
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    3,910

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    deknow - your insight about the moving of honey in early spring is the second time that I have heard that described. Ed Holcomb who I have mentioned before says that is one of the things that you accomplish by reversing hive bodies - the disruption causes the bees to move honey (in their stomachs of course) and stimulates brood rearing much like a nectar flow. But in the configuration that you are describing it also opens up additional brood area, and gets them storing honey over head - both good things for hive growth and swarm mitigation.

    Tim Ives (If you are still here, and would participate a bit more please) - what was your bee keeping background and experience prior to buying all of those packages in 2001 if you don't mind saying?

    Everyone - I personally find the discussion here very interesting and informative, even if I don't buy in 100% to what any one other person is promoting, don't you?

    You know we can discuss, disagree, and learn from each other (even those we don't fully agree with) as long as it's civil enough that those we would learn from can enjoy it. Or at least stand it.

    Know what I'm saying?

  12. #412
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    On principle, one shouldn't have to challenge rude, anonymous trolls when they are calling your experience lies. The community should always strive to improve itself. WLC has been unfair (and that is a generous characterization on my part) in the extreme. If you think he has been fair, you defend him.
    deknow
    I wasn't unfair, I wasn't rude (in fact I used alot of restraint), and I was right on the money.

    However, since you decided to refer to me as a rude, anonymous troll...

    You often get judged by the company you keep.

    Keep it in mind next time you vouche for guys like Tim.

    What's the title of that book again?

  13. #413
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Barrie, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    305

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    The three deep setup isn't new. Dee Lusby has been running and promoting a base 3 deep broodnest with two or three deep supers for years. Strong full box splits and no feeding. This is in a much more marginal region than Tim's.
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  14. #414
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    WLC. Skeptical??? Iam posting under my own name. What's WLC stand for (W)ho (L)ikes (C)ynics?

  15. #415
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Pre 2001 Zero..... The reason I got into beekeeping is I was a sugar/HFCS junky. 10-12 bottles MD a day. When I quit the pop I started using honey. 2003 caught a Black locust flow, I was hooked and wanted more hives. Had a unlimited supply of free material (until housing down turn) and started building boxes. Guess I should of stock piled.
    The MBA president made a comment that if he couldn't consume it himself it didn't go into his hives. That comment made me reevaluate my practices at that time.

    Then I started doing tear outs also. Was amazed at the amount of area some colonies obtained. Which again got me to reevaluate, what are the limitation?

    Honey bees do a finite number of tasks. Beekeepers do a infinite number of tasks according to what they think. The better you understand the finite the more infinite your beekeeping WILL beecome...Tim Ives


    Where did I say I do splits in July? Incorrect.. splits are done end of April beginning of May. I split when the bees tell me. I don't tell them.

  16. #416
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    If a pic is worth thousand words, then all my FB pics are worth a million......

  17. #417
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,718

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Tim I'm trying to figure this out. I'm going to ask a question you need not answer if you don't want to. What is your average crop across all hives, even non producers. IE, your total crop, divided by total number of hives?

    And how would this compare with the commercial, non migratory beeks around you, if there are any?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  18. #418
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    That's a interesting question Oldtimer. On a good year, supered hives average 14 mediums. But 4-6 are brand new supers. So you have to factor in honey to wax. Some say it takes 8# of honey to make 1# of wax. Some say 10# honey per 1#. 35000 cells to 1# wax. So every 7 new supers takes 100# honey to make wax( using 10# to 1# ratio). Splits ate drawning out 2 new deeps. 5 frames equals 35000 cells. So 2 New deeps takes 40# of honey to make wax. Also have to factor honey to brood. Base 3 deeps 100# stores+ 40# into wax+ honey to brood.
    Supered hives:- Base 3 deep (100#)+honey to brood+ honey to wax (supers 2-4 new)28-56#+ surplus 450#.

  19. #419
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    "Where did I say I do splits in July?"

    "...but July splits are now the shitz."

    Like, in the last statement.

    WLC stands for Wildlife Conservation. Since you asked.

    I don't have to say that that if you're puting back 100#s of stores, then you are feeding.

    I did notice the deep above the excluder, the medium, and 2 deeps in Mike Risk's setup.

    So, I pretty much know where the 100#s is coming from.

    Maybe we need to ask, "How many actual #s of honey are you selling per tower hive?"

    My feeling is that we'll be a few 100#s short of the 500# mark.
    Last edited by WLC; 05-29-2013 at 04:44 AM.

  20. #420
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    So by saying a sarcastic statement about doing splits in July. You automatically assume I'm making splits in July. Wow.... I'm I doing this in my sleep or something?


    Do you even have bees yourself?? Sounds to me you dont know anything about what bees do.
    Last edited by Barry Digman; 05-29-2013 at 07:24 AM. Reason: language

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