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  1. #381
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Tim, Maybe I am missing something here, We all like to talk about honey production. And your numbers seem fantastic, but if I do some math, your useing 3 deeps, and 7 supers to generate 400lbs? How and why is that any better than the typical single deep setup? generaly around here single deep hives generate 100-150 also..... and when you loose a queen or a swarm there you only lose a small amout. seems to me your putting all your eggs in large baskets and lifting a lot of deeps pretty high up, so what the real perk???

  2. #382
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    May 2009
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Tim, Maybe I am missing something here, We all like to talk about honey production. And your numbers seem fantastic,
    I may be missing something here too.... but I have been following this thread from the beginning.

    Isn't T Ives saying that his 3 deeps of bees have more workers... far more workers...perhaps twice as many, as 3 indiv. deeps. Hence, with the correct timing... he makes far more honey.....??
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  3. #383
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Forgive me if I withhold judgement for a bit longer because if Tim is truly onto something here then the results to beekeeping as we know it will be profound. Honey production will skyrocket, migratory beekeeping will die (as someone who has been away from home 3 months and counting I like that part) declining bee numbers will turn into exponential increases and the fears by many of pesticide problems with bee hives will be but a distant memory. Go get em Tim and anyone else using this system and I mean that sincerely. You have an audience.
    Jim ... I think you are correct. If this system is reproducible outside of Tim Ives hands.... then we may be chatting with the new Langstroth!! Or maybe Brother Adam... no kidding...
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  4. #384
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    So all that we really need is the same area as is found in 3 deeps for overwintering, and the same area as found in 7 supers? Loaded with stores, of course.

    Now, did I miss the part where he proved that HFCS and Sub. won't work the same as stored honey and pollen?

  5. #385
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    968

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Now, did I miss the part where he proved that HFCS and Sub. won't work the same as stored honey and pollen?

    I seriously doubt he cares whether the same could be done of purchased feed.
    If it works for him without it, why would he spend the time and money to find out?

    Sounds like something more incumbent on the curious to prove or disprove...with their own time and money.

    For my part, I think it's worth setting aside 3 deeps and 7 supers to see how well it works, rather than talking the thing to death.

    It's a rainy day, but I had better get some work done in the shop...

  6. #386
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    It's more than just woodenware and feed.

    It's about profit margins.

    If honey sells for $2.10 a pound, it could make a world of difference to use HFCS and sub. .

    By the way, Mel did make up powerhouse honey hives, but his method doesn't rely on all natural feed or really tall hives.

    Why hasn't anyone asked the question, "Why don't you just use a horizontal setup if you're making your own bodies anyway?"

    It would avoid the 'ups and downs'.

  7. #387
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
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    344

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    There's 3 other guys helping pull honey. Their hives are set up the same way also. I climb the ladder, another guy takes them, another blows the bees out and stacks on pallet. Another takes bobcat to load truck. Bobcat does the rest of the moving around to hot room/ weight scales /extraction. Only other lifting is frames to the cowen decapper.


    I'll just mind my own beeswax.Have fun figuring everything out. Sounds like most of you are having better success anyways. Somehow 30%+ losses are better than 8%???

  8. #388
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Tim:

    I took a look at Mike Risk's site to see what he was saying. It's basically about giving them room, and splitting in July.

    Although I didn't read anything about a treatment free philosophy.

  9. #389
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    6,065

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    Isn't T Ives saying that his 3 deeps of bees have more workers... far more workers...perhaps twice as many, as 3 indiv. deeps. Hence, with the correct timing... he makes far more honey.....??
    He said compared to a starving 2 brood box hive, his hives have 50% more brood. So therefore they have 300% more bees.

    To me, the maths didn't work in any obvious way. Explanation Tim?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #390
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    If someone can figure out my biggest problem every year of never enough equipment. Then I'll bee interested in what you have to say.... Everything else is blah blah blah.....
    Well here I can help, it's simple. My situation is in a way like yours, I make exponential increase of bees every year as I sell hives. Based on numbers you've given, my increase is greater than yours, just, I sell them.

    So, the equipment problem. It's simple. Late fall I plan the following season. I calculate how much gear will have to be made, and I make it. If help is needed, I get help.

    So in essence, I make a plan, and one way or another I ensure it happens.

    Not being your own idea, I hope that is not just blah blah blah to you.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #391
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,550

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    There's 3 other guys helping pull honey. Their hives are set up the same way also. I climb the ladder, another guy takes them, another blows the bees out and stacks on pallet. Another takes bobcat to load truck. Bobcat does the rest of the moving around to hot room/ weight scales /extraction. Only other lifting is frames to the cowen decapper.


    I'll just mind my own beeswax.Have fun figuring everything out. Sounds like most of you are having better success anyways. Somehow 30%+ losses are better than 8%???
    Am I reading some condescension? There is a pretty deep body of beekeeping expertise and many quite successful beekeepers that post on this forum who rarely struggle with losses. You just might learn a few things from them as well. The fair minded ones will give your ideas a fair hearing. I trust you will reciprocate.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #392
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    It looks like Mike Risk, of Michigan, is using standard top supering rather than putting all 7 on at once. It also looks like he uses 3 deeps as well although I've noticed a shallow in between the top deep and the other two.

    http://www.riskshoney.com/blog/

    Maybe tower hives aren't so bad for swarm control and honey production.

    However, it does seem like some of the other stuff is 'fluff' after all.

  13. #393
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,704

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    As I've said before, Ramona and I drove to NJ from MA to hear Tim give a presentation. In a previous thread, I gave some of the details that I remembered, and some ideas as to what is actually going on.

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...600#post920600
    I mentioned Tim Ives a few times earlier in this thread. There are at least a few things that I found interesting about his approach that he either didn't articulate, or hadn't considered
    [snip]
    There is also another aspect to Tim's management that I find intriguing. He overwinters in 3 deeps, with the top deep full of honey, the bottom deep with pollen, and the middle deep with mostly honey and bees.

    Tim claims that the way he keeps the queen out of the supers is that the first super above the brood nest is always full of undrawn foundation. He claims that the queen won't cross or lay in the foundation. ...but we know the queen can lay in foundation, and we know that the queen will cross foundation to lay...so what gives?

    Tim never puts this (medium) box of foundation on by itself...it is always accomanied by (it seemed like a minimum of 2) drawn medium honey supers....and he does this early (like March). His observation is that the bees use all the stored honey and pollen to build up very large populations early.

    What I think is happening is what I would call SHM (strategic honey moving). The box of foundation is placed at the same time as a couple of honey supers. The empty comb up top stimulates the bees to move honey from the bottom 3 deeps into the super. The bees are stimulated by moving the honey. The broodnest is being opened up by honey being moved out. The queen is laying in the cells emptied of honey...in the brood nest, so the opposite situation exists from when the bees are on a flow and the queen can't lay in the cells as they are filled with honey as soon as the brood emerges. There is no motivation for the queen to lay in the box of foundation or in the supers, as the broodnest is getting bigger (from honey being moved out of the nest)...
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  14. #394
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,704

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Am I reading some condescension?
    mmmm, I can't count the number of times that WLC has essentially called Tim's claims lies (never used the word "lie", but "stories" several times)...and anyone who didn't just assume that he is feeding, harvesting brood to make super hives, and performing OTS queenrearing was happy to believe the lies...all over the last 2 months.

    I wouldn't judge him too harshly for being sick of it. Don't you expect that when you tell us about your methods that we believe what you are actually saying? Isn't that nice?

    Would you participate in discussions if the discussions were about how you aren't actually doing what you claim to be doing? Wouldn't you get sick of it?

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  15. #395
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    The image of the tower hives on mike risk's site is clickable so that you can take a good look at the setup of many of the hives.

    http://www.riskshoney.com/wp-content...all-hive-3.jpg

    I think that placing a medium above the two bottom deeps is either stored honey or the 'stimulus', and the deep on top may be for any number of other purposes.

    I could see how a deep full of stores/brood could be very helpful when splitting the lower two deeps. The medium may contain brood/honey so that it can be combined with a medium honey super to make the medium supers to place on top of new splits.

    Not a bad idea at that.

    PS: I see excluders on some of them.

  16. #396
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,704

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    So all that we really need is the same area as is found in 3 deeps for overwintering, and the same area as found in 7 supers? Loaded with stores, of course.
    Right, because we know that one giant comb will produce the same result as a bunch of parallel combs arranged in a cube with the same surface area.

    Now, did I miss the part where he proved that HFCS and Sub. won't work the same as stored honey and pollen?
    You seem to have missed the part where Tim has been sharing what he is doing. Assuming he is honest and accurate (both of which I assume, but I've been fooled before), he has proven that with his bees, in his situation, in the years he has been managing these bees he has obtained the results he has obtained.
    I'm not sure where the need to prove the equivalency of honey and HFCS comes into it at all. What about what Tim has done or said implies or demands that he run HFCS in parallel with his unfed hives in order to run a controlled study? If you don't think he needs to be running a controlled study, I'd be curious to know by what procedure one could prove that "...hfsc and sub. won't work the same as stored honey and pollen?"

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  17. #397
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Deknow:

    When you're loading up July splits with stores, believe me, you're feeding. It probably sustains them well into late September. It's not semantics.

    The 'sugar feeding idiot' crack against Mel pretty much says Tim's a bit of a fanatical treatment-free, natural-feed type of guy. You don't have to be treatment free or a natural feed only beekeeper to make this thing work.

    I've known of Mel's methods for making powerhouse honey hives for a while now.

    More recently, I've been able to take a look at some tower hives from Michigan in a photo.

    I get how it works.

    No antics required.

    PS-No need to make excuses for Tim. We understand.

  18. #398
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    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    3,129

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I'm not sure where the need to prove the equivalency of honey and HFCS comes into it at all. What about what Tim has done or said implies or demands that he run HFCS in parallel with his unfed hives in order to run a controlled study? If you don't think he needs to be running a controlled study, I'd be curious to know by what procedure one could prove that "...hfsc and sub. won't work the same as stored honey and pollen?"

    deknow
    I would assume that he is not feeding HFCS and sub because he is getting premium TF prices for his honey. If not then I do not understand the economics.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  19. #399
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Would you participate in discussions if the discussions were about how you aren't actually doing what you claim to be doing? Wouldn't you get sick of it?

    deknow
    Have some sympathy with that as it's happened to me on occasion.

    However the other driver in this is that along the thread Tim didn't participate, but instead, another member with little knowledge of bees, has been making wild and over exuberant claims on Tim's behalf, some of which have since been denied by Tim. This, and these claims created some rather understandable scepticism, which extended to the whole thing even the true claims.

    For me, I have still not figured out if in terms of total resources which includes the small hives, there is an all up better honey harvest than just running all hives equally in a standard manner.

    I may try to figure out the entire method & try it on a few hives, but that's why I need pollen & nectar flow data and how that effects Tim's timing of his manipulations because I will have to translate that onto my conditions, other side of the world.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #400
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,704

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Deknow:
    When you're loading up July splits with stores, believe me, you're feeding. It probably sustains them well into late September. It's not semantics.
    I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
    ...that I (deknow) feed when making July splits? (I do make splits in July, I don't feed them, save the honey they get when being split)
    ....that Tim feeds when making July splits (calling him a liar)
    ....that all beekeepers feed when making splits in July (this simply isn't true)
    ....that many commercial, sideline, and hobby beekeepers feed July splits to the point where it is generally a standard practice (this is probably true, but I'm not sure what it has to do with any of the discussion here).

    What are you trying to say?

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

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