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  1. #261
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,104

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    We all know who Gene Robinson is. Right?
    Washington Post Reporter who is often a guest on MSNBC shows?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  2. #262
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Mark, he has never treated. He's been keeping bees since 2002. Until 2006 he lost a lot of hives, and then he started splitting from feral swarms. This has been the basis of his increase since.
    Thanks Dean. Must have been some other Tim who PMed me a while back. Name dropping is so confusing.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  3. #263
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Barrie, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    459

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    It seems that 3 deeps or the equivalent used to very common in harsh climates. Both in the desert or in the northern US or Canada. Dee Lusby runs 3 deeps, with brood in all 3 bookended by honey and pollen. There are some interesting observations here as well:

    http://www.honeybeesuite.com/triple-deep-hives/
    Adam - Zone 5A
    www.adamshoney.com

  4. #264
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    2,996

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Yeah, I always thought that henbit was a pollen producer, not a nectar producer. But I'm not a Botanist, so what do I know?
    Yea.... they can get this clear pollen from them, if I remember correctly. But not a heck of a lot.

    Beekeepers are often better botanists than botanists..
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  5. #265
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Tim Ives is an MDA disciple.

    That's the story.
    Please proceed. I don't know what evidence you have for this revelation, but here's my evidence:

    "Each year I just pull splits, bred them in other yards and create new
    yards." --Tim Ives
    I'm dubious about your credentials, to be honest. What serious academic would make up stuff about a guy he had no actual knowledge of, based on a few posts on an internet forum, particularly when those accusations can so easily be demonstrated to be a baseless fantasy? In essence, you've accused a beekeeper you don't even know of being some sort of conman. That's pretty irresponsible, and I'm a little surprised that the moderators haven't admonished you for this.

    I expect Barry would speak sharply to me if I started making up stuff about you... and you don't even have a name.

  6. #266
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,104

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    He gets a lot of honey from deadnettle and henbit in the corn fields before they are planted.
    Did Tim Ives tell you that?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  7. #267
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    2,996

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I expect Barry would speak sharply to me if I started making up stuff about you... and you don't even have a name.
    I am not defending WLC, I have long ago noticed that he is perfectly capable of doing that himself. But.... he has pointed out some things that are difficult to understand. The main one being.... "Where do those 18 frames of brood come from?" - isn't that the bottom line?
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  8. #268
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Dr seeley....



    R haldridge, I understand the thought process, but when you look at the production per box its no better than other methods... so why do we get all excited at the numbers..?? In this post alone they have been exurated and blown up to mythical portions, and yet his yeilds compared to brood chambers are no more impressive that say Ron Housholders who runs single deeps and a lot of supers. agreed his treatment free is great. but I see nothing mythical here, just a lot of box stacking...
    Well, this all started when someone opined that treatment free beekeepers weren't much interested in honey production, and that taking very little honey was commonplace among tf beekeepers. I don't know if that's true, but I offered Tim Ives as a counterexample. I don't think the greatest thing about his operation is the amount of honey he gets, so much as it is his winter loss rate, which he says has been averaging 8 percent in recent years. That is pretty good, or so I understand. If you look at the per box numbers, it gets even more interesting.

    He started his massive supering operation in 2006 with 40 hives, each three deep. Given his loss rate, he lost 3 or 4 of those. As I understand it, these days a lot of beekeepers average 30 percent loss rates. I you were to break up those 3 deeps into single boxes, and had that percentage of deadouts, you'd have to restock 36 hives, so he's doing better on both the labor side of things and the replacement cost side.

    Except for that whole climbing the stepladder thing, he does avoid some of the labor costs, and woodenware costs, associated with breaking the 3-deep boomers up into single boxes.

    As I said earlier, I'm old and feeble, so his system is impractical for me. But he handles 150 hives and works a full time job as a carpenter, I believe.

    It's possible some variation of his system might work for folks like me, if we pulled honey more frequently and didn't have such massive stacks of supers.. but that's just speculation.

  9. #269
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,104

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    What I don't get is, considering the basic idea that to produce a frame of brood requires a frame of honey and a frame of pollen, how does one get those huge crops?

    I know one beekeeper who has hives in NY in which the brood is in a deep and a medium w/ the honey above an excluder, the number of medium supers commonly being head high. Six or more supers above the excluder. Some times they will all have honey in them.

    (how do you spell excluder to satisfy Spell Check?)
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  10. #270
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Did Tim Ives tell you that?
    No. I took that from this article:

    http://www.indianahoney.org/2013/02/...-Corn-Belt.cfm

    In it, the author lists the forage sources in Tim's area, according to Tim. There's no reference to nectar from hensbit, just "forage." Being an ignorant newbee, I didn't know that hensbit isn't a nectar source, and just assumed.

    My mistake.

  11. #271
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,079

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Mark, excluder isn't in most spell checkers. You have to add it.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  12. #272
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
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    4,078

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post

    (how do you spell excluder to satisfy Spell Check?)
    Add it to the dictionary. Sorry, didn't notice Solomon already answered that.

  13. #273
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    I am not defending WLC, I have long ago noticed that he is perfectly capable of doing that himself. But.... he has pointed out some things that are difficult to understand. The main one being.... "Where do those 18 frames of brood come from?" - isn't that the bottom line?
    I guess no one actually looked at the article. The 18 frames of brood thing comes from basic arithmetic. The comparison was between a 2 deep and a three deep system.

    In Tim's area, March 11 on average, pollen starts coming in. He says a typical 2 hive body system will start laying at this time and over the next 2 brood cycles (21 days) a 2 hive body system will average 12 frames of brood, but a 3 hive body system will average 18 since it incurred an earlier cycle. That's 50% more brood in the 3 hive body system and by the end of April, a 3 hive body system can have 300% more bees versus a 2 hive body system. Of course... this is also requiring a healthy queen that is properly nourished and in her zone... laying approx. 2000-3000 eggs per day.
    I'm just a beginner, so I don't understand what's unrealistic about that statement.

  14. #274
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    rhaldridge:

    Tim is being entertaining. I recognize the methodology.

    He's not a conman. He's a story teller.

    The fat bee thing isn't scientific, nor is it necessary to understand what he's doing.

    It's just a 'Powerhouse Honey Hive'.

    And no. There's no way he came up with 18 frames of capped brood from a single queensright hive right before the main flow.

    I am an admirer of Mel's MDA Splitter methodology.

    That's why I recognized it immediately.

    Am I making sense to you?

  15. #275
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    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
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    4,078

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    It seems to exceed the laying capacity which is generally stated to be up to about 2000 per day. 18 deep frames is far more than I have ever seen in my admittedly limited experience. A much more experienced bee keeper I have met who is well known locally for very large honey per hive numbers says that 20 medium frames is an adequate size for a brood nest. But it's all anecdotal as far as I know.

  16. #276
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Cookeville, TN, USA
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    4,078

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    rhaldridge:

    Tim is being entertaining. I recognize the methodology.

    He's not a conman. He's a story teller.

    The fat bee thing isn't scientific, nor is it necessary to understand what he's doing.

    It's just a 'Powerhouse Honey Hive'.

    And no. There's no way he came up with 18 frames of capped brood from a single queensright hive right before the main flow.

    I am an admirer of Mel's MDA Splitter methodology.

    That's why I recognized it immediately.

    Am I making sense to you?
    Since we are so far afield anyway. When in relation to the main flow is the best time to add brood to such a hive? I did it this year about a week before the poplar bloom, which I'm sure was late - but on the other hand those hives are rockin'. If I can keep them from swarming I'm pretty hopeful.

  17. #277
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    David:

    The key is that you don't want uncapped brood (or even a laying queen!) in that type of tower hive.

    That's why the capped brood, and any bees you shake or combine into the tower will gather and store so much honey. They're basically just foragers, comb builders, and honey makers.

    Capped brood, alot of bees, and queen pheromone are the main ingredients (some don't use a queen or the pheromone). You're restricting the castes that the bees will become by doing that.

    That's the trick.

    Just remember that the queens and combs that aren't useful to this method, are safely in nucs removed to some other yard (some say at least a mile away).

    They're the ones used to outbreed mites and prepare for next year's towers.

    Here's how Mel does it.

    http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/NucManagement.pdf

    Here's Mel's site:

    http://www.mdasplitter.com/

    Are we cool on this yet?

  18. #278
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    It seems to exceed the laying capacity which is generally stated to be up to about 2000 per day. 18 deep frames is far more than I have ever seen in my admittedly limited experience. A much more experienced bee keeper I have met who is well known locally for very large honey per hive numbers says that 20 medium frames is an adequate size for a brood nest. But it's all anecdotal as far as I know.
    The article says 18 frames over two brood cycles. That's 9 frames per cycle, 3 frames per box. I'm a beginner, so can someone tell me why that's implausible in a three deep hive with large stores, and pollen coming in?

  19. #279
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    If you took a gander at Mel's method, you'd see that it takes 3 or 4 queensright hives to build a tower of power.

  20. #280
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,440

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I expect Barry would speak sharply to me if I started making up stuff about you... and you don't even have a name.
    Ah, but he does, and when he starts getting snarly, I start using it!
    Regards, Barry

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