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  1. #181
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    Dec 2002
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    And that's why this is the Treatment-Free Forum. It's about the bees, not about what's in the honey.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  2. #182
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Sol:

    As I pointed out a while ago, the beeswax supply is contamininated with mg. quantities of pesticides. If you use commercial foundation or coated frames, guess what?

    So, one of the other steps to treatment free beekeeping is figuring out how to avoid that pitfall.

  3. #183
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    How do you Delete a Post?
    Administrator is the only one who can fully delete a post. All you can do is edit it.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  4. #184
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gainesboro, Tennessee, USA.
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    398

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Going foundationless fixes that but takes a little more work. (it's worth it) and so much cheaper.

    Just so we don't have anymore rocket scientist type remarks..... everything is made up of chemicals duh.

    Everything has a positive or negative effect. Though it might not be direct. There are over 800 known mites and microbes in a healthy hive less than 1% are damaging to the bee. Some help ferment bee bread and other such useful things.

    Treating bees for varroa kills the majority of the good guys with the bad.

    I do agree there are times to use feed. Though I will never be convinced that there is any feed better than nectar and honey. If the difference between a worker and a queen is the diet of a matter of days then I want only the best for my stock. I am not a big fan of feeding queen rearing hives artificial feed. Also HFCS is commonly known to have a host of pesticide and herbicidal residue.

    Sure bottom line is that it is best to keep bees from these harmful chemicals. But like the human body honeybees thankfully can stand a certain degree of chemical presence. The less the better.

    Each of us has different variables to deal with so who can judge those who aren't as far along as the other? Rome was not built........

    But as my Grandpa always says your either growing or dying.

  5. #185
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Tut, tut, tut..

    Don't forget plastic frames, coated with pesticide contaminated bees wax. Smoker fuel is a truly broad source of unusual chemicals.
    Wood frames in my hives, no foundation. I use pine needles from the woods in my smoker, untreated. Actually, though I always have it nearby, I really haven't used it yet, except once when there were a lot of bees in the air, orienting.

    I hope you're not taking the tack my 93 year old uncle takes. When I tell him I'm an organic gardener, he snorts and says, "Everyone is an organic gardener."

    He's referring to that organic chemistry course he took 60 years ago.

  6. #186
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    26,632

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Sol:

    As I pointed out a while ago, the beeswax supply is contamininated with mg. quantities of pesticides. If you use commercial foundation or coated frames, guess what?

    So, one of the other steps to treatment free beekeeping is figuring out how to avoid that pitfall.
    His name is Solomon and the bees bring pesticides into the hive w/ the nectar. So bees are in effect chemically treating themselves. I believe that the premiss of TF beekeeping is the beekeeper not intentionally treating colonies w/ miticides or antibiotics.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  7. #187
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    I think I can still call him Sol. We're 'frenemies'.

    Yes, sqkcrk, bees will bring contaminants into the hive. This includes radioisotopes as well!

  8. #188
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    Dec 2002
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    Denver, Colorado
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    I believe Mr. WLC threw a fit last time someone called him something he didn't like. Got the moderator involved and everything.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  9. #189
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    I'm still waitng for Barry to apologize.

  10. #190
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Reynolds View Post

    Just so we don't have anymore rocket scientist type remarks..... everything is made up of chemicals duh.

    Everything has a positive or negative effect.

    i'm not a rocket scientist kamom, but i am degreed in neurophysiology. (mark, i can see why you wanted to delete your similar comment). the point i was trying to make is that all of nature is chemistry and i believe it's a bit arbitrary to label substances good, bad, or otherwise based on if they occur naturally or are synthesized by humans.

    it's more accurate to say that (most) everything has a positive and negative effect. i assume the varroa treatment you are referring to is the use of an organic acid, which some have shown to alter gut microbia. the positive effect of eliminating death by varroa has to be balanced by the negative effect of possibly altering gut microbia.

    all treatments (as well as no treatments) have to be assessed in terms of the risk vs. the benefit ratio. and as you well point out, those get to be determined by the individual and are generally based on what outcome is being sought. no judgement here.

    sorry for the duh.. comment.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #191
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    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    2,646

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    I'm going to add one - very judicious honey harvesting. I'm under the impression that a lot of TF guys either leave a very large amt of honey or don't really treat it as a product at all.


    Here here,,,, which always begs the point to me of why???but that another thread

  12. #192
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,385

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I'm still waitng for Barry to apologize.
    Looks like things will heat up again if you're going to continue to detract from the goal and purpose of this forum. It's sounding like trolling to me.

    We've already been down this little country road before:
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ess-hype-to-me
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...-in-this-forum

    btw WLC, how are those rooftop hives of yours doing? Did they all make it through the winter?
    Regards, Barry

  13. #193
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Originally Posted by David LaFerney I'm going to add one - very judicious honey harvesting. I'm under the impression that a lot of TF guys either leave a very large amt of honey or don't really treat it as a product at all.



    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Here here,,,, which always begs the point to me of why???but that another thread
    I can't speak to the "a lot of TF guys" comment, but I will say by "judicious", I make sure to leave enough honey with the bees for them to make it through the winter. Doesn't everyone? I do it with their own honey, others do it by feeding. I still average 5 gallons of honey from each hive.
    Regards, Barry

  14. #194
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Originally Posted by David LaFerney I'm going to add one - very judicious honey harvesting. I'm under the impression that a lot of TF guys either leave a very large amt of honey or don't really treat it as a product at all.





    I can't speak to the "a lot of TF guys" comment, but I will say by "judicious", I make sure to leave enough honey with the bees for them to make it through the winter. Doesn't everyone? I do it with their own honey, others do it by feeding. I still average 5 gallons of honey from each hive.
    Yeah, that's a frequent red herring in discussions that devolve into how impractical treatment free beekeeping must be. But... there's evidence that this is a fairly silly criticism. Tims Ives does not feed. Period. He takes a dozen mediums (sometimes quite a bit more) from many of his hives, pulling honey 3 times a season. He's figured out how to take many times the average amount of honey, and he does not treat or feed. He tells me that a couple beekeepers in his area have adopted his techniques and are doing just as well or better.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXESkk7ZhXs

  15. #195
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    incredible, a full medium yeilds about 3 gallons of honey @ 12 lbs per gallon. that's 36 lbs. per medium times 12 or more. thats harvesting 400 lbs or more per hive with leaving enough for a three deep colony to overwinter on in northern indiana.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #196
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    I watched Tims videos.... not impressive at all... hes running 3 deeps for brood, and useing a ladder...... with 3 deeps as brood, he should be filling a super a week, all year...... looks to me to be a poor use of wooden ware, and a nightmare for the back... and where the bees in those supers??

  17. #197
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    to each his own, but there's no way i would want to work those skyscraper hives.

    my guess is that those 12 or more supers harvested weren't completely full of honey, but i'm only speculating.

    rh mentions that 'tim does not feed', but the first box removed in the unwrapping video is a feeding rim, probably for mountain camped dry sugar.

    i not trying to play 'gotcha' here. tim has some unique management practices, i wish he was willing and able to share them here on the forum.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #198
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Barry, they starved. I took the opportunity to switch from VSH to Bee Weavers though.

  19. #199
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    to each his own, but there's no way i would want to work those skyscraper hives.

    my guess is that those 12 or more supers harvested weren't completely full of honey, but i'm only speculating.

    rh mentions that 'tim does not feed', but the first box removed in the unwrapping video is a feeding rim, probably for mountain camped dry sugar.

    i not trying to play 'gotcha' here. tim has some unique management practices, i wish he was willing and able to share them here on the forum.
    He's an accessible guy. He seems to be too busy to waste his time here, but he's responded to me, once I found his email.

    I found a listing online of his harvesting schedule, and figured out that he seemed to be taking 600 to 700 lbs of honey from his boomers. He has stated explicitly to me that he does not feed. I believe it because he's also said that he used to be a sugar addict himself. He started keeping bees right after he stopped eating sugar.

    I'm not the only person who has found Tim's hives impressive. Randy Oliver has too.

    But what does he know, right?

  20. #200
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    wow, that is impressive. if you mean 600-700 lbs from each boomer, that's pushing 20 medium supers harvested and still leaving enough for winter with no feeding. got to be an all time record.

    i'm no olympian, but i'm in decent shape. a full medium super is about as much weight as my lower back can handle.

    i had a couple of hives reach four mediums over a single deep last year, and that fourth one was just a little bit too high for my liking. going up and down a ladder with them would not be for me.

    obviously tim's in great shape and doesn't mind tearing those big hives down each time he adds a super, as he likes to put each new one above the third deep.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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