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Going Treatment Free - step 1

116K views 571 replies 41 participants last post by  jim lyon 
#1 · (Edited)
Full disclosure - I'm not treatment free, but I applaud anyone and everyone who has established a successful treatment free apiary. Seriously I do.

But, I would suspect that everyone who has done it would agree with a few principles:

  • Treatment free does not mean doing nothing and hoping for the best.
  • Treatment free requires at least as much understanding of bee keeping as any other philosophy - so educate yourself.
  • If you start out with a couple of generic packages from Georgia, and don't check and don't prepare for any contingencies you probably will not be successful as a treatment free bee keeper.
  • If you replace your dead outs with generic packages from Georgia every spring you probably won't ever become successful as a treatment free bee keeper.

Maybe I am wrong about some of these - and I welcome constructive input. The reason I am even bringing it up is that I get quite a few contacts via our local bee keepers association from new bee keepers who of course want to be treatment free - of course they want that, who wouldn't? But they don't understand these basic points of the pursuit. That is on them of course, it should be obvious that everyone needs to educate themselves about their chosen path. But for some reason a common take away from the treatment free internet community is that all you have to do is not treat and all your dreams will come true.

I just wish that all of the proponents would make it painfully true that at least at first - treatment free is not easy.

Or am I wrong?

Again - not hacking on the whole treatment free thing. I'll probably give it a go myself one day when I think I have achieved a sufficient state of Zen.

I almost forgot - Step 1 to becoming a treatment free bee keeper - learn to be a bee keeper.
 
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#373 ·
Last year no.... For one they lost momentum with the 2 week April freeze then the dearth from June till end of July when soybeans bloomed. Couple yards closer to mint did better, because they are irrigated.
This year is looking good so far. The hives in the blueberries hit 2 supers in first week.
 
#374 ·
Tim - to kind of sum up...

You started 5-6 years ago with about 15 hives mostly originating from caught swarms

You over winter in 3 deep hive bodies.

You add a lot of supers very early.

Any hives that you don't have supers for you split into singles which get equalized.

You don't tamper with the brood nests.

You don't feed or treat at all.

In good years some hives produce up to 400 pounds of harvested honey produced during early and late nectar flows.

Is that all correct - or would you add to it?
 
#376 ·
Close David. 2001-2007 purchased 54 packages/4nucs. 50-90% losses.

2006/07 winter lost 28out of 29.

2007 bought 10 more packages and put out 40 swarm catch boxes. Caught 15 swarms. Winter 07/08 lost all the package bees and only lost one of the swarms and still had my 06' survivor which was actually from 04' Russian Kelley package. 2007 was the first year I didn't usr any sugar since had mostly all new drawn comb from 06'. Since my only package survivor was a 3 deep system. Started running them all that way. My original thought was pull a split drop the 3rd deep down and put a couple supers on. Didn't want to mahe splits till after black locust flow. Problem was the triples started swarming out 4/27 and would be done by May 7th ish. So started supering before 4/11(16 days to make Qcells) results was unreal amounts of honey. Just started adjusting from there.

If you get on the IBA website, community michiana beeline. Read thru them since 2008. You'll notice I'm the only one in this area doing good on honey production. Doesn't matter where I place the bees.

No.. not some hives. Yards......

Barry, no that's been real life since 07' and for s growing number of people in my area.

I just turned Unity Garden hives from 4 into 18. But the get grant monies for equipment. I've built all my own from recycled lumber, including frames up until 2010. Not feasible to be milling few thousand frames.
 
#379 ·
Forgive me if I withhold judgement for a bit longer because if Tim is truly onto something here then the results to beekeeping as we know it will be profound. Honey production will skyrocket, migratory beekeeping will die (as someone who has been away from home 3 months and counting I like that part) declining bee numbers will turn into exponential increases and the fears by many of pesticide problems with bee hives will be but a distant memory. Go get em Tim and anyone else using this system and I mean that sincerely. You have an audience.
 
#381 ·
Tim, Maybe I am missing something here, We all like to talk about honey production. And your numbers seem fantastic, but if I do some math, your useing 3 deeps, and 7 supers to generate 400lbs? How and why is that any better than the typical single deep setup? generaly around here single deep hives generate 100-150 also..... and when you loose a queen or a swarm there you only lose a small amout. seems to me your putting all your eggs in large baskets and lifting a lot of deeps pretty high up, so what the real perk???
 
#382 ·
Tim, Maybe I am missing something here, We all like to talk about honey production. And your numbers seem fantastic,
I may be missing something here too.... but I have been following this thread from the beginning.

Isn't T Ives saying that his 3 deeps of bees have more workers... far more workers...perhaps twice as many, as 3 indiv. deeps. Hence, with the correct timing... he makes far more honey.....??
 
#384 ·
So all that we really need is the same area as is found in 3 deeps for overwintering, and the same area as found in 7 supers? Loaded with stores, of course.

Now, did I miss the part where he proved that HFCS and Sub. won't work the same as stored honey and pollen?
 
#385 ·
Now, did I miss the part where he proved that HFCS and Sub. won't work the same as stored honey and pollen?

I seriously doubt he cares whether the same could be done of purchased feed.
If it works for him without it, why would he spend the time and money to find out?

Sounds like something more incumbent on the curious to prove or disprove...with their own time and money.

For my part, I think it's worth setting aside 3 deeps and 7 supers to see how well it works, rather than talking the thing to death.

It's a rainy day, but I had better get some work done in the shop...
 
#386 ·
It's more than just woodenware and feed.

It's about profit margins.

If honey sells for $2.10 a pound, it could make a world of difference to use HFCS and sub. .

By the way, Mel did make up powerhouse honey hives, but his method doesn't rely on all natural feed or really tall hives.

Why hasn't anyone asked the question, "Why don't you just use a horizontal setup if you're making your own bodies anyway?"

It would avoid the 'ups and downs'. :)
 
#387 ·
There's 3 other guys helping pull honey. Their hives are set up the same way also. I climb the ladder, another guy takes them, another blows the bees out and stacks on pallet. Another takes bobcat to load truck. Bobcat does the rest of the moving around to hot room/ weight scales /extraction. Only other lifting is frames to the cowen decapper.


I'll just mind my own beeswax.Have fun figuring everything out. Sounds like most of you are having better success anyways. Somehow 30%+ losses are better than 8%???
 
#391 ·
Am I reading some condescension? There is a pretty deep body of beekeeping expertise and many quite successful beekeepers that post on this forum who rarely struggle with losses. You just might learn a few things from them as well. The fair minded ones will give your ideas a fair hearing. I trust you will reciprocate.
 
#533 ·
Whoah! You have been away a long time, then you come back with so much anger.

Since you called me out by name, you appear to be insinuating that about me. Hope not.
Lucky I'm here too, makes it a little harder for you to get away with something like that.

Doubt Tim has a problem with anything I said, but if he did I'm sure he would rather discuss in person, than have the lackey do it for him.
No, I was talking about WLC, who made many statements about what Tim was doing, based on absolutely no actual facts. He as much as called Tim a liar. As you may have noticed, his groundless surmises were completely wrong in every respect.

I've been up in the North Country, living in a tent with no internet. I come back and check the thread and you're still whining about stuff I didn't say over a month ago. Maybe you'd care to list a few of the incorrect assertions I made about Tim's approach to beekeeping?

I didn't think so.

I'm sure Tim would be surprised to know he has a lackey. Are you unclear on the purpose of this forum? I brought him up because Randy Oliver mentioned him as a successful treatment-free beekeeper. I tried to relay some information about his methods, from my correspondence with him and other sources, because he was not a member here and I found his approach interesting. I thought other members might find it interesting too, which is apparently correct.

You know, if you get upset every time a new beekeeper has an opinion, you'll be upset constantly.

Oh, wait....
 
#392 ·
It looks like Mike Risk, of Michigan, is using standard top supering rather than putting all 7 on at once. It also looks like he uses 3 deeps as well although I've noticed a shallow in between the top deep and the other two.

http://www.riskshoney.com/blog/

Maybe tower hives aren't so bad for swarm control and honey production.

However, it does seem like some of the other stuff is 'fluff' after all.
 
#393 ·
As I've said before, Ramona and I drove to NJ from MA to hear Tim give a presentation. In a previous thread, I gave some of the details that I remembered, and some ideas as to what is actually going on.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ree-Commercial-Beekeepers&p=920600#post920600
I mentioned Tim Ives a few times earlier in this thread. There are at least a few things that I found interesting about his approach that he either didn't articulate, or hadn't considered
[snip]
There is also another aspect to Tim's management that I find intriguing. He overwinters in 3 deeps, with the top deep full of honey, the bottom deep with pollen, and the middle deep with mostly honey and bees.

Tim claims that the way he keeps the queen out of the supers is that the first super above the brood nest is always full of undrawn foundation. He claims that the queen won't cross or lay in the foundation. ...but we know the queen can lay in foundation, and we know that the queen will cross foundation to lay...so what gives?

Tim never puts this (medium) box of foundation on by itself...it is always accomanied by (it seemed like a minimum of 2) drawn medium honey supers....and he does this early (like March). His observation is that the bees use all the stored honey and pollen to build up very large populations early.

What I think is happening is what I would call SHM (strategic honey moving). The box of foundation is placed at the same time as a couple of honey supers. The empty comb up top stimulates the bees to move honey from the bottom 3 deeps into the super. The bees are stimulated by moving the honey. The broodnest is being opened up by honey being moved out. The queen is laying in the cells emptied of honey...in the brood nest, so the opposite situation exists from when the bees are on a flow and the queen can't lay in the cells as they are filled with honey as soon as the brood emerges. There is no motivation for the queen to lay in the box of foundation or in the supers, as the broodnest is getting bigger (from honey being moved out of the nest)...
 
#395 ·
The image of the tower hives on mike risk's site is clickable so that you can take a good look at the setup of many of the hives.

http://www.riskshoney.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/tall-hive-3.jpg

I think that placing a medium above the two bottom deeps is either stored honey or the 'stimulus', and the deep on top may be for any number of other purposes.

I could see how a deep full of stores/brood could be very helpful when splitting the lower two deeps. The medium may contain brood/honey so that it can be combined with a medium honey super to make the medium supers to place on top of new splits.

Not a bad idea at that.

PS: I see excluders on some of them.
 
#397 ·
Deknow:

When you're loading up July splits with stores, believe me, you're feeding. It probably sustains them well into late September. It's not semantics.

The 'sugar feeding idiot' crack against Mel pretty much says Tim's a bit of a fanatical treatment-free, natural-feed type of guy. You don't have to be treatment free or a natural feed only beekeeper to make this thing work.

I've known of Mel's methods for making powerhouse honey hives for a while now.

More recently, I've been able to take a look at some tower hives from Michigan in a photo.

I get how it works.

No antics required.

PS-No need to make excuses for Tim. We understand. :rolleyes:
 
#400 ·
Deknow:
When you're loading up July splits with stores, believe me, you're feeding. It probably sustains them well into late September. It's not semantics.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
...that I (deknow) feed when making July splits? (I do make splits in July, I don't feed them, save the honey they get when being split)
....that Tim feeds when making July splits (calling him a liar)
....that all beekeepers feed when making splits in July (this simply isn't true)
....that many commercial, sideline, and hobby beekeepers feed July splits to the point where it is generally a standard practice (this is probably true, but I'm not sure what it has to do with any of the discussion here).

What are you trying to say?

deknow
 
#401 ·
If he wants to directly challenge WLC he should do so. I read an open question "to have fun figuring things out" and an assumption that it's either his 8% or everyone else's 30% losses. If I misread his intent I apologize, if not I think he owes an apology to others. I, and I am sure many others, are willing to give Tim's ideas on beekeeping a fair hearing. I always
pay close attention to a doer like Tim who is "walking the walk" and giving us real life experiences.
 
#405 ·
If he wants to directly challenge WLC he should do so.
On principle, one shouldn't have to challenge rude, anonymous trolls when they are calling your experience lies. The community should always strive to improve itself.
WLC has been unfair (and that is a generous characterization on my part) in the extreme. If you think he has been fair, you defend him.

deknow
 
#408 ·
Oldtimer:

That's why I looked up another Michigan beekeeper, Mike Risk, to see what he was doing with tower hives.

If you take a gander at the photo, click to enlarge, you can get a very good idea of the setup.

I found the picture to be worth a thousand words.

WLC.
 
#409 ·
#411 ·
deknow - your insight about the moving of honey in early spring is the second time that I have heard that described. Ed Holcomb who I have mentioned before says that is one of the things that you accomplish by reversing hive bodies - the disruption causes the bees to move honey (in their stomachs of course) and stimulates brood rearing much like a nectar flow. But in the configuration that you are describing it also opens up additional brood area, and gets them storing honey over head - both good things for hive growth and swarm mitigation.

Tim Ives (If you are still here, and would participate a bit more please) - what was your bee keeping background and experience prior to buying all of those packages in 2001 if you don't mind saying?

Everyone - I personally find the discussion here very interesting and informative, even if I don't buy in 100% to what any one other person is promoting, don't you?

You know we can discuss, disagree, and learn from each other (even those we don't fully agree with) as long as it's civil enough that those we would learn from can enjoy it. Or at least stand it.

Know what I'm saying?
 
#458 ·
They're turning the 3rd deep into bees. That's easy enough to prove with my YouTube hive. First vid was taken 3/15. New pollen started coming in 2/29. There was still snow on the ground 2/26. Then a abnormal warm up. That hive had every bit of 40# of bees plus whatever out foraging?? Some will question why didn't I split it. NO DRONES. Drone brood wasn't even capped yet. So wouldnt have mature drones for atleast 29 days.
 
#415 ·
Pre 2001 Zero..... The reason I got into beekeeping is I was a sugar/HFCS junky. 10-12 bottles MD a day. When I quit the pop I started using honey. 2003 caught a Black locust flow, I was hooked and wanted more hives. Had a unlimited supply of free material (until housing down turn) and started building boxes. Guess I should of stock piled.
The MBA president made a comment that if he couldn't consume it himself it didn't go into his hives. That comment made me reevaluate my practices at that time.

Then I started doing tear outs also. Was amazed at the amount of area some colonies obtained. Which again got me to reevaluate, what are the limitation?

Honey bees do a finite number of tasks. Beekeepers do a infinite number of tasks according to what they think. The better you understand the finite the more infinite your beekeeping WILL beecome...Tim Ives


Where did I say I do splits in July? Incorrect.. splits are done end of April beginning of May. I split when the bees tell me. I don't tell them.
 
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