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Going Treatment Free - step 1

116K views 571 replies 41 participants last post by  jim lyon 
#1 · (Edited)
Full disclosure - I'm not treatment free, but I applaud anyone and everyone who has established a successful treatment free apiary. Seriously I do.

But, I would suspect that everyone who has done it would agree with a few principles:

  • Treatment free does not mean doing nothing and hoping for the best.
  • Treatment free requires at least as much understanding of bee keeping as any other philosophy - so educate yourself.
  • If you start out with a couple of generic packages from Georgia, and don't check and don't prepare for any contingencies you probably will not be successful as a treatment free bee keeper.
  • If you replace your dead outs with generic packages from Georgia every spring you probably won't ever become successful as a treatment free bee keeper.

Maybe I am wrong about some of these - and I welcome constructive input. The reason I am even bringing it up is that I get quite a few contacts via our local bee keepers association from new bee keepers who of course want to be treatment free - of course they want that, who wouldn't? But they don't understand these basic points of the pursuit. That is on them of course, it should be obvious that everyone needs to educate themselves about their chosen path. But for some reason a common take away from the treatment free internet community is that all you have to do is not treat and all your dreams will come true.

I just wish that all of the proponents would make it painfully true that at least at first - treatment free is not easy.

Or am I wrong?

Again - not hacking on the whole treatment free thing. I'll probably give it a go myself one day when I think I have achieved a sufficient state of Zen.

I almost forgot - Step 1 to becoming a treatment free bee keeper - learn to be a bee keeper.
 
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#310 ·
I simply don't believe some of the claims being made.

Nor do I believe that what's being reported as Tim's methodology is accurate.

For example, what proof do we have that Tim did in fact achieve a World Record Honey crop from his hive(s)?

I've read that Tim does in fact feed back both honey stores and pollen to his hives in early March.

That's how he's building up brood. 2 cycles= aprox 42 days, so they're ready about the middle of/or late April.

However, the truly vg ladden winter caste of bees is long gone since they will age normally once exposed to 2 brood cycles (brood pherormone/FAEEs cause(s) the change).

So, he's does feed despite what's being reported here, and those aren't truly 'Fat Bees' that he has after 2 brood cycles.

However, I will agree that he does have the resources to construct powerhouse honey hives.

We simply don't have all of the correct details.

Don't blame me. :no:
 
#312 ·
Beekeepers seem to have a certain scientific bend to their thinking. For those that do, it is only natural for them to be skeptical and to expect data and proof when they encounter something far from their experience.

Tim claims a 400 lb average in a state with a 43 lb/hive (av) and only 8000 hives (2012). Of course all data have outliers, but how many standard deviations out from the average is 400 Lb? It is not really surprising that we would be skeptical.

Tim's production alone would account for a sizeable portion of the states entire honey harvest.
 
#317 ·
Beekeepers seem to have a certain scientific bend to their thinking. For those that do, it is only natural for them to be skeptical and to expect data and proof when they encounter something far from their experience.
Well, do you feel that Randy Oliver has a scientific bent? He actually visited the guy, talked to him at length, visited his yards. Surprisingly enough, he reached a completely different conclusion than a guy who has done none of those things. Who has more credibility here?

I know very little about beekeeping. But I know quite a bit about thinking critically, and to me, this is an easy call. On one side you have data, witnesses, and actual videos and pictures. On the other, you have conjecture and innuendo.

Which is more convincing?
 
#315 · (Edited)
Ignoring the claims that are made, ie, world record honey production, etc, and just going by video evidence that I can see, I don't quite know what all the fuss is about.

I see a hive stacked up incredibly high with boxes that are virtually empty, and not many bees in them. The hives shown, have less bees than any of my production hives in season, just a massive heap of boxes. What's all the fuss?

Going by some videos I've seen posted here by some of the commercial beeks, his hives have less bees than the US commercial hives I have seen.

However, the way his hives are set up, if there was an incredibly strong flow, I'm pretty sure they could put away an impressive crop. I'd like to see the harvest video. Going by bee numbers in the hives, I can't really see world record though.

As to what seems to be the other bone of contention, the 18 frames of brood claim, the original statement is confusing, ie, what does 18 frames of brood over 2 cycles mean? Me, I have no idea.

If it simply means 18 frames over 3 boxes, with various amounts of brood, nothing really ultra remarkable about that.

For purposes of comparison with Tim's video, I have posted a pic of a hive with a normal complement of bees in the supers. The hive with the lid off is 6 deeps, which if med boxes had been used for honey would be around 8 boxes total, similar to Tim's, just, a lot more bees in my hives. By the way, the smaller hives pictured are not because they have been used to boost the bigger hives, it is because ALL the hives pictured were left over nucs, some only been put in boxes within the last couple months. They are 10 frame deeps, I spread the combs wider in honey boxes to 8 frames per 10 frame box to make easier honey extracting, plus the bees can get more honey in a box.

Not trying to detract from Tim at all, I'm sure he has developed a method to get a good crop. The method appears successful in his area, it will not be successful in some other areas.

 
#321 ·
What problem?

Being skeptical isn't considered a problem.

It's what happens when you aren't skeptical that causes problems. Can we agree on that Mark?

There's no need for fat bees, or piles of empty deeps/supers or any of the other distractions to make a powerhouse honey hive.

You shouldn't need a tall ladder to harvest honey.

It's a bunch of gimmicks that detract from the intent of the MDA Splitter method of chemical free beekeeping.

It's about two operations: one for outbreeding mites, the other for making powerhouse honey hives.

Maybe Tim should get a cape and a lovely assistant? :)
 
#323 ·
Nothing wrong w/ skepticism. I think I am about as skeptical as anyone, except you. :) I think you take skepticism to a higher level. Almost painting someone as a liar, when they haven't written a word in our Forums.

And your criticism of Randy Oliver? Seems kinda petty and snarky. (must be a better word I just can't think what it would be)
 
#326 ·
I've called Tim 'entertaining'.

Tim told Randy exactly what he wanted to hear (vg/fat bees).

I've pointed out that we're not really talking about the 'substance' of treatment free beekeeping.

We're caught up in the peripheral issues.

If someone wants a more substantive view of this type of TF beekeeping, go to MDA Splitter and Mel will give it to you.

It's a reasonable first step.

I wouldn't say the same for what Tim is doing. Too much show, not enough substance.
 
#329 ·
Have you seen the photos from Old Bee Books? Tall hives have historically been rather common. Not that tall hives necassarily mean huge crops. But, there are videos of honey harvesting showing beekeepers taking 6 and 8 full boxes of honey off of 40 colony yards. It does happen. And you don't need to follow MDA methodology.
 
#330 ·
The point of the MDA Splitter method is that you can keep bees, chemical free, and enjoy honey producing hives. Outbreed mites, make powerhouse honey hives.

It's not about enjoying the view from high up (gee my bees look small from up here).

It's treatment free beekeeping, with alot of management thrown in.

Why is everyone so fixated on really tall hives?
 
#331 ·
Just to point out that there are some actual advantages to harvesting more honey from fewer hives - IE "Tall Hives" Assuming a beekeeper has a goal of producing X amt of honey - "tall hives" allow that goal to be achieved with fewer hives. Fewer hives to care for, inspect, medicate, feed, requeen, etc. Less equipment required - same number of honey supers, but less of everything else. Less space needed in the apiary. Less start up cost. As a general rule fewer hives = less work. Some justifiable feeling of accomplishment to be gained from beating the average. Maybe some folks just think it's kind of cool to make a lot of honey from fewer hives.

Every bee keeper has their own reasons and goals.
 
#332 ·
One of the reasons I developed the cube hives was to save on height. By comb area, the cube hives are 2/3 the height of a normal Langstroth style hive. I don't have any data yet, they have not yet grown into their boxes.

Tim is right though, large hives do limit swarming. Keeping comb on hives in the off season saves on required storage space, even though he doesn't do that as far as I can tell.

I don't like the idea of multiple sizes of boxes/frames. I don't like the idea of excessive management, however he has not claimed such. The benefit to my operation seems fairly limited because I don't have continuing nectar flows throughout the year. If dearth kills off the clover, there's precious little to be had after black locust is over. There's a tiny bit of goldenrod, but I never harvest that. I already keep my hives larger than most of them will fill or grow to. Occasionally, I'll get a six deep, but usually only one a year. I don't take much honey below the fourth deep.
 
#333 ·
Looking over Mel's version of how to put together a powerhouse hive.

He's using about 20 frames of brood from 3 or 4 hives to do that.

2 or 3 queens would end up in nucs to start over again.

That might become a consideration if you could make more money from making increases. Nucs, splits, etc. .

Of course, if the weather/nectar flow doesn't cooperate, you've just gathered alot of resources and put them in the wrong place.

It's tough to say if a tower hive is worth the gamble. You can always feed your hives to make more bees. But that's not an option if the flow doesn't go well, and alot of brood is no longer available for making more bees (they're in the towers).

That flow would really need to be a good one to make it worth the risk.
 
#334 ·
Actually. his 400 lbs from 3 deep brood chambers is not that good. Per my "Scale hive report" of 2012, one deep made 150 lbs. Three deeps (added) made 450 lbs, and I did not have to use a step ladder. It is all about the use of capital. What money did he make with what investment?

Either way, time will solve this one too. Let's see how long he sticks around. We've seen this before, and we will see this again.

BTW, as the crow flies, he is about 100 miles from me. If the lake froze, a quick drive.

Crazy Roland Diehnelt, 5th gen beekeeper.
Linden Apiary, est. 1852
 
#566 ·
Time solves what again?
Been looking for this one. If you got 150# off a single I'd be getting 900#!!!!!
Furthermore, If you're still only getting 150# per colony, time solved absolutely NOTHING. Lmao.
Dont worry I'll check back in 8 years again.

Tim Ives.
 
#336 ·
my original comment was 'to each his own'.

the cool thing about this forum is that there are no two beekeepers that do things exactly the same way.

i have really benefited from getting exposed to all of the different approaches and applying what is useful to my apiary.

as i mentioned working tall hives isn't something that appeals to me but i wouldn't criticize anyone for wanting to do it.

as roland and the others point out, three deeps used as singles can net close to the same honey combined as having the three stacked.

back problems seem to be common among long time beekeepers, something i will do my best to avoid at all costs.

mb, in your all medium hives do you find that the bottom box or two is full of pollen at the end of your main flow?
 
#410 ·
my original comment was 'to each his own'.

the cool thing about this forum is that there are no two beekeepers that do things exactly the same way.

i have really benefited from getting exposed to all of the different approaches and applying what is useful to my apiary.

as i mentioned working tall hives isn't something that appeals to me but i wouldn't criticize anyone for wanting to do it.

as roland and the others point out, three deeps used as singles can net close to the same honey combined as having the three stacked.
now that tim has shared that about seven mediums harvested twice each is what he shoots for in a typical year,

and doing the math,

seven mediums filled twice per season @ 34 lbs. is 576 lbs, or 4.66 supers per deep of bees.

4-5 supers harvested is about where i will be this year with my most established hives, (the one's that had mostly drawn comb already, running single deeps and medium supers, and that's with no treatments or feeding.

since i work alone, i have decided that five supers above a deep is my limit for stack height, and i'll probably keep it to four next year by rotating drawn supers in as i extract.

i don't see why i shouldn't be able to average 125-150 lbs. harvest once i have enough drawn comb. (assuming good weather and successful swarm prevention).

that's going to be 3-4 supers of spring honey, and another one in september just before the goldenrod starts. i'll leave about one and a half supers per colony for overwintering.
 
#337 ·
>mb, in your all medium hives do you find that the bottom box or two is full of pollen at the end of your main flow?

In recent years since going to eight frame mediums, I've done more and more management by the box and don't dig down that deep very often. I guess I should pay more attention, but that would be my guess, that the bottom box has a lot of pollen.
 
#339 ·
Top box is upper entrance... Most are insulated. I'm in the snow belt of Lake Michigan, nothing to get 2' of snow. Anyone that knows me, knows how much I'm against feeding.... Junk food= junk bees

Brood area needs to be 1/3 of hive space..
 
#340 ·
18 frames of brood is each 21 day cycle NOT 9 frames. A 3 deep system broods up before a nearly starving 2 deep system. Then over the NEXT 2 brood cycles, a 3 deep system has 50% more brood vs a 2 deep system= 300% more bees 18 frames + 6 frames+ 6 frames= you need a ladder to super..... Brood area MUST be 1/3 of total hive space.

Whoever said I work construction full time and tend hives... False.... I haven't worked construction since 10/2009. Bee's not dying and construction slow. Any guesses what I'm doing?

Supers weight around 50# unless your using one piece Pierco frames 10% more. 34# of honey is a good average on supers. Yes... 400# is a good average on Supered hives. Are all hives supered? No...mathematically impossible to ever have enough supers. 50% are supered the rest is split one hive into 3.


O yes....Some very comical posts on here. Thanks for the laughs.

Who ever said they got 150# off a single deep hive. You are in a GOOD honey area and I would get 1000# off one of these hives.........
 
#343 ·
Whoever said I work construction full time and tend hives... False.....
That would have been me. I based it on the following information given in this thread.
he handles 150 hives and works a full time job as a carpenter, I believe.
Guess I should pay less attention to wild claims.

Who ever said they got 150# off a single deep hive. You are in a GOOD honey area and I would get 1000# off one of these hives.........
Well one thing you don't struggle with, is an ego.

Have you ever got 150 lb's off a single brood box hive? It's not hard in a reasonable area, it's only 2 deeps. I'll be interested in the how to get a thousand pounds off one video though. Ever done that or is it talk?
 
#341 ·
WLC, he's how that 'GAMBLE' has went. Absolute ZERO feeding, treating and I have several ZERO loss yards. Overall 8% average losses and 1000%+ increase since 2007.

Swarm in May is worth a load if hay, swarm in June is worth a silver spoon. Swarm in July let it fly, but July splits are now the ****z. Ya, Mel just loves seeing me at a meeting..LOL
 
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