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  1. #541
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    See what I mean?

    I don't disagree with honey being better for bees than sugar. However, there are financial and practical reasons for feeding syrup.

    Tower hives are old news. Someone does it in the local community garden every year. It works once in a while.

    The vg/fat bees requirement is hypothetical.

    Have either you or Randy every extracted and quantified vg proteins at any time?

    However, we're still far away from treatment free beekeeping issues. No, this wouldn't be a 'good' first step either.

  2. #542
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    See what I mean?

    I don't disagree with honey being better for bees than sugar. However, there are financial and practical reasons for feeding syrup.

    Tower hives are old news. Someone does it in the local community garden every year. It works once in a while.

    The vg/fat bees requirement is hypothetical.

    Have either you or Randy every extracted and quantified vg proteins at any time?

    However, we're still far away from treatment free beekeeping issues. No, this wouldn't be a 'good' first step either.
    Vg is hypothethical to you, I can quantify......

    Far away from treatment free??? Maybe you are. I've been treatment free since started in 02'. Sugar free since 2006.

    Not a good first step? NOBODY has proven me wrong...

  3. #543
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,021

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Guys I think we all need to chill.

    The thread played itself out weeks ago. Then, today, weeks later, someone with a chip on his shoulder gets his internet access back and jumps in, spitting venom, trying to make it look like it's actually others that have the problem, and attempting to rile everybody up. If we give him the air time he will succeed.

    To Tim. Never heard of you till this thread. Then I hear claims of world record crops, huge hives, etc, being told all this from a guy with no bee knowledge. So of course, I had my doubts. Anybody would. Specially when we get told you are doing all this AND working full time as a carpenter. All sounded too good to be true. And turned out it was, once you showed up personally and debunked the more extreme unbelievable stuff, I started to think, well, maybe.

    I will look you up on FB, now I know what that is. . But as to this thread, it is so full of vitriol and anger, that personally, I think more justice could be done to your methods by starting a new thread on it. Then people don't have to wade through 27 pages to get to anything sensible. Me, I'll look you up on FB but really I don't like FB I'd rather see it with all the other bee stuff on Beesource.

    I am using your methods on some hives, some input from you along the way would be a great thing.

    I'll start the thread for you if you want that.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  4. #544
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Guys I think we all need to chill.

    The thread played itself out weeks ago. Then, today, weeks later, someone with a chip on his shoulder gets his internet access back and jumps in, spitting venom and attempting to rile everybody up, and if we give him the air time he will succeed.

    To Tim. Never heard of you till this thread. Then I hear claims of world record crops, huge hives, etc, all from a guy with no bee knowledge. So of course, I had my doubts. Anybody would. Specially when we get told you are doing all this AND working full time as a carpenter. All sounded too good to be true. And turned out it was, once you showed up personally and debunked the more extreme unbelievable stuff, I started to think, well, maybe.

    I will look you up on FB, now I know what that is. . But as to this thread, it is so full of vitriol and anger, that personally, I think more justice could be done to your methods by starting a new thread on it. Then people don't have to wade through 27 pages to get to anything sensible. Me, I'll look you up on FB but really I don't like FB I'd rather see it with all the other bee stuff on Beesource.

    I'll start the thread for you if you want that.
    Can't put pictures/videos on here to easily. Android is linked to FB, pics are uploaded in seconds. My FB page has several 100 beekeeper friends.

  5. #545
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,021

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    OK well I'll look you up.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #546
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Tim, you can't really communicate with some folks. I put WLC on ignore long ago, after he decided you were just making up a good story.

    I'm old and I don't have enough time left to keep giving attention to folks who already know everything.

  7. #547
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    55

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    I second that, start a new thread.

  8. #548
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Guys I think we all need to chill.

    The thread played itself out weeks ago. Then, today, weeks later, someone with a chip on his shoulder gets his internet access back and jumps in, spitting venom, trying to make it look like it's actually others that have the problem, and attempting to rile everybody up. If we give him the air time he will succeed.

    To Tim. Never heard of you till this thread. Then I hear claims of world record crops, huge hives, etc, being told all this from a guy with no bee knowledge. So of course, I had my doubts. Anybody would. Specially when we get told you are doing all this AND working full time as a carpenter. All sounded too good to be true. And turned out it was, once you showed up personally and debunked the more extreme unbelievable stuff, I started to think, well, maybe.
    Still can't come up with any examples of that "more extreme unbelievable stuff," I see. When the web sources I read were written, apparently Tim was a carpenter. Now he's not. This is your gotcha?

    That's a little sad. Tim's hives are in fact huge. He was the one who used the phrase "world record," posting in a local bee club forum. And I was not the only person who mentioned Tim in this thread-- Dean knows quite a lot about treatment free beekeeping, and he actually went to a lecture Tim gave in NJ. But apparently you didn't see any of Dean's contributions to the thread, even though you replied to some of them. Odd.

    As far as vitriol goes... I have to point out that it was you who found it necessary to call names and to accuse me of passing on misleading information, without being able to factually support that accusation in any way. If that's your idea of civil discourse... well, I guess I was wrong to give you a second chance. A shame... I probably could have learned something useful from you. Well, I must now return you to your honored position on my ignore list. That list is you and one other guy. Does that tell you anything?

    I may have no "bee knowledge," but at least I have some knowledge of what good manners are. And I don't feel the need to fabricate unpleasant stuff about people I don't like.

    I don't have the time and energy to give you the attention you want. I'm old, and life is short.

    Bye.

  9. #549
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Of course, he feeds his bees honey. Saying he doesn't feed is semantics.
    Tim still has to show his official world record. Yada. yada, yada...

    Since others are building tower hives without being treatment free, or feeding honey only, I don't see the treatment free issue here.

  10. #550
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,523

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    OK, enough personal remarks. Keep it on topic please.
    Regards, Barry

  11. #551
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Ka'u Hawaii
    Posts
    169

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    "If 5 deep is all they'll keep, then winter time shouldn't let them sleep"- Tim Ives
    Not feeling poetic here. The truth is we try to harvest multiple times. Let the bees refill supers. Why? For one, our lehua honey needs to be extracted before it granulates, so harvesting as soon as ready is the way to go.

  12. #552
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Tineo, Asturias, SPAIN
    Posts
    184

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by honeydrunk View Post
    I second that, start a new thread.
    I third that!

    I would like to see a thread just on Tim Ive's methods. I have cut and paste what he has shared so far because I would like to go treatment free and want to set up a number of hives this way next year. I would also like to set up at least one Perone hive - the concepts seem similar - huge feral/swarm colonies, lots of stores left so they don't have to be fed syrup, no treatment, etc... In fact, the Perone MkI looks just like Tim's setup, though I am sure there are lots of differences....

    Whose going to start the thread?

  13. #553
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
    Posts
    1,976

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    "The only beekeepers with good queens are beekeepers that are raising their own queens."

    - Albert Einstein
    Haha! Well done, Dean.

  14. #554
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    I am left wondering what a "conventional beekeeping system" actually consists of. Sounds kind of like an assumption that those who don't follow the Beesource treatment free definition are all doing things in a like manner. But if that is the case then why do some seem to have much better results than others, shouldn't those following this system all be losing their bees? Hmmmm.
    Yep... What are the common denominators? I'm seeing them with people I've never met before.

  15. #555
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,021

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Tim what cell size do you use?

    About your bees, trying to patch together what you and WLC have been saying but what I'm interested in is the breed. When you were having big losses, what was the difference between those bees and what you have now. IE, flightiness, color, anything else you know.

    I understand your bees have a strong Russian influence, is that correct? Any African influence?

    The Ferals you speak of, any idea what they are? (different areas have different ferals)

    You say your bees are gentle, is that even when not on a flow? Don't have to wear a veil gentle? Are they calm on a comb or run around?

    Sorry for so many questions but just trying to piece things together.

    By the way an answer of more than one sentence would be great.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #556
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Tim what cell size do you use?
    Standard Plastic foundation..
    About your bees, trying to patch together what you and WLC have been saying but what I'm interested in is the breed. When you were having big losses, what was the difference between those bees and what you have now. IE, flightiness, color, anything else you know.

    Loss package bees...

    I understand your bees have a strong Russian influence, is that correct? Any African influence?
    My only survivor out of 54 packages from 04-07' was a 04' Russian queen from Kelleys

    The Ferals you speak of, any idea what they are? (different areas have different ferals)
    Predominantly darker??? Carni ?

    You say your bees are gentle, is that even when not on a flow? Don't have to wear a veil gentle? Are they calm on a comb or run around? Don't have to wear anything. Mind their own business when pulling comb out.


    Sorry for so many questions but just trying to piece things together.

    By the way an answer of more than one sentence would be great.
    Not sure how the answering in your quote will work..

  17. #557
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    This will explain the genetics viewpoint:

    www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15937139

    This is from a NM beekeeper/member:

    http://www.slideshare.net/PaulMcCart...-feral-bees-v2

    The hybrid swarm constantly backcrosses with domestic stock.

  18. #558
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    According to my USDA test results previous 3 years. Negative on AHB genetics.

  19. #559
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,021

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    OK I got your answers Tim.

    Standard plastic foundation, That would be 5.3?

    Some of the other questions, could you expand a little more? For example gentleness. One persons idea of gentle is different to another, so to try to quantify I'm asking if you'd be comfortable working without a veil.

    And some of the other questions could be expanded on more..

    WLC thanks for the links, useful. However I'm particularly asking Tim, re HIS bees, as he is the guy actually doing it & succeeding commercially.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #560
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    344

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1


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