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  1. #361
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I stand corrected. But, there are more than a few similarities between the methodologies. By the way, I think that Mel advocates feeding back honey, etc., rather than using 'sugar'.

    So, you've got stores on your splits in July. Makes sense. Those would be overwintered and used for next seasons honey production. Correct?

    Not for nothing, but you are moving stores around as part of your management. So, I think that some of us would characterize that as feeding stores.

    Mel advocates candy block's.....

    How do you figure I'm moving stores, other than equalizing splits? The occasional after-swarm, I may add drawn comb.

    I find all this hilarious......

  2. #362
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    "I don't have to FEED anything,.."
    Semantics...

    How about the splits? Do they become next years honey producers?
    Only half will... As I said earlier, mathematically impossible to super everything.

  3. #363
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/NucManagement.pdf

    Well, if you look at the graphic above, Mel's saying feed back honey. But, he does sell candy blocks. Tis true.

    Maybe if you came up with a graphic, we could all understand everything more clearly.

  4. #364
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,929

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Thanks for the answer on the nectar flow, although I am not familiar with a lot of those plants. How does mathematics make it impossible to super all hives?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #365
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    If he's feeding back honey, he just started that in the past year or so. Probably since I made him look like a total idiot at the IBA meeting 2 years ago.......

    According to the 2008 MDA step 3 FEED sugar water.....

  6. #366
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Step one..... Leave on candy board???????

  7. #367
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Stillwell, KS
    Posts
    645

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Tim,

    I like many others are following this thread closely to learn and we really like your input, but you need to quit with the personal attacks or you will get yourself banned from the site.

    Calling somebody who advocates a different method than you do an idiot crosses the line.


    Don't get yourself run regards,

    Don Semple
    Overland Park, KS

  8. #368
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Mathematics, in order to contain a hive. 7 supers is the most effective number. 100 hives one would need 700 supers. If you only have half that number of supers, the other 50 needs to be split. The 50 gets turned in 150. So now you have 200 hives or would need 1400 supers. Mathematically impossible. Unless you borrowed 1000 supers. The increase is exponential...

    If someone can figure out my biggest problem every year of never enough equipment. Then I'll bee interested in what you have to say.... Everything else is blah blah blah.....

  9. #369
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    4,017

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Tim Ives - thanks for joining the discussion and clearing up everything that has been said about your method. Clearly you've worked out a system that works great for you in your area so congratulations for that. I imagine that a lot of what you are doing would also be at least informative to other bee keepers in other parts of the company.

    However, I'm willing to bet that if you did the exact same thing here in the south it wouldn't work out exactly the same. Your bees are getting good quality year round nutrition not only because you leave them plenty of stores but also because according to what you say your summer dearth mostly only occurs in the month of August. Last year our dearth began in early June and ran until this spring.

    Leaving on lots of honey might keep them from starving during a long hot dearth but it won't result in much brood production or strong colonies going into winter.

    Again, congratulations on your success, but be aware that you are painting with a mighty broad brush when you use terms like "Sugar feeding Idiot."

    Nonetheless, thanks for your comments.

  10. #370
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Don Semple, don't care....wouldn't bee the first time being kicked off a site..... Why do you think I don't comment on sites like this???????????????????????? Again don't care.. I'm not the one losing bees...
    Last edited by Barry; 05-28-2013 at 07:57 AM. Reason: language

  11. #371
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    David.... No its just not my area..... Have a growing number of people with equal or better success in several states now.

  12. #372
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,416

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    tim, i agree with what david said and thanks again for sharing your experiences.

    it sounds like you may only have a few weeks of a dearth there.

    do you typically get to extract the seven honey supers per hive twice each season?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #373
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Last year no.... For one they lost momentum with the 2 week April freeze then the dearth from June till end of July when soybeans bloomed. Couple yards closer to mint did better, because they are irrigated.
    This year is looking good so far. The hives in the blueberries hit 2 supers in first week.

  14. #374
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    4,017

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Tim - to kind of sum up...

    You started 5-6 years ago with about 15 hives mostly originating from caught swarms

    You over winter in 3 deep hive bodies.

    You add a lot of supers very early.

    Any hives that you don't have supers for you split into singles which get equalized.

    You don't tamper with the brood nests.

    You don't feed or treat at all.

    In good years some hives produce up to 400 pounds of harvested honey produced during early and late nectar flows.

    Is that all correct - or would you add to it?

  15. #375
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,399

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    The increase is exponential...
    Only on paper. Real life tends not to work this way.
    Regards, Barry

  16. #376
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Close David. 2001-2007 purchased 54 packages/4nucs. 50-90% losses.

    2006/07 winter lost 28out of 29.

    2007 bought 10 more packages and put out 40 swarm catch boxes. Caught 15 swarms. Winter 07/08 lost all the package bees and only lost one of the swarms and still had my 06' survivor which was actually from 04' Russian Kelley package. 2007 was the first year I didn't usr any sugar since had mostly all new drawn comb from 06'. Since my only package survivor was a 3 deep system. Started running them all that way. My original thought was pull a split drop the 3rd deep down and put a couple supers on. Didn't want to mahe splits till after black locust flow. Problem was the triples started swarming out 4/27 and would be done by May 7th ish. So started supering before 4/11(16 days to make Qcells) results was unreal amounts of honey. Just started adjusting from there.

    If you get on the IBA website, community michiana beeline. Read thru them since 2008. You'll notice I'm the only one in this area doing good on honey production. Doesn't matter where I place the bees.

    No.. not some hives. Yards......

    Barry, no that's been real life since 07' and for s growing number of people in my area.

    I just turned Unity Garden hives from 4 into 18. But the get grant monies for equipment. I've built all my own from recycled lumber, including frames up until 2010. Not feasible to be milling few thousand frames.

  17. #377
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cookeville, TN, USA
    Posts
    4,017

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    How many hives do you run in one location?

  18. #378
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,399

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ives View Post
    Barry, no that's been real life since 07' and for s growing number of people in my area.
    I understand that, but it's only 5 years, and less so for the others. Give it two to three times that amount of time and see if the same can be said. I doubt it.
    Regards, Barry

  19. #379
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,332

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Forgive me if I withhold judgement for a bit longer because if Tim is truly onto something here then the results to beekeeping as we know it will be profound. Honey production will skyrocket, migratory beekeeping will die (as someone who has been away from home 3 months and counting I like that part) declining bee numbers will turn into exponential increases and the fears by many of pesticide problems with bee hives will be but a distant memory. Go get em Tim and anyone else using this system and I mean that sincerely. You have an audience.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  20. #380
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    North Liberty, IN
    Posts
    339

    Default Re: Going Treatment Free - step 1

    Fully aware of that Jim Lyon. Just come to any state bee meeting I go to. I'm fearless on this issue....

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